Episode 307: Post NAC Wrap-Up with Betsey Lynch, Jennifer Crank, and Amber McCune

Welcome to bad dog agility, a podcast, helping you reach all of your dog agility goals, whether it's competing under the bright lights of the televised finals at Westminster or successfully navigating a homemade course in your own backyard. We'll bring you training tips, interviews and news about the great sport of dog agility. Are you ready? I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm writing the show starts with your host,

Jennifer Stevan and Sara. I'm Jennifer And I'm Sarah. And this is episode 307 today's podcast is brought to you by HitItBoard dot com and the new Teeter TeachIt and easy to use tool that controls the amount of tip on your Teeter. So you can introduce motion to your dog in a gradual way, go to HitItBoard dot com for the new Teeter TeachIt and other training tools and toys.

Use discount code BDA to get 10% off your order. That's HitItBoard dot com. Today. We are very excited to be back on the podcast after the AKC nationals, and we have on the podcast, our usual myself is Davon and Jennifer normally co-host is doubling as a guest for having gone and had great success at the nationals. And we have also added to the podcast,

bad dog agility, sponsored athlete, Betsy Lynch, and Amber McCune. So we have this huge party going on here. Welcome to the podcast, ladies. Thank you. All right. So first let's just go around and say where everybody is, is at right now, like geographically. So someone and I are here in Parallon, Texas outside of Houston.

Jennifer, I am in Columbus, Ohio, or just on the east side of Columbus, Ohio, Betsy. I am just outside of Columbus, Ohio. All right. An Amber I'm an Amber Hampshire. All right. So we wanted to have these ladies on the podcast to talk about the event, their own success there, but also more generally how the trial went.

What we think about the course maps. I was also there live, not running, but helping to run our online class the before and after. And then as Stefan was back home, holding down, you know, our Fort here and has the perspective of watching it on the live stream as well. So we kind of have all those perspectives here on the podcast.

Okay. Now I don't know where to go. Are you prepared? Nothing? I would do a little bit of background on our two guests that are not Jennifer. Okay. Tell us about yourself. How long you've been in the sport, the dyes that you're currently running. Why don't you tee it up? Go for it. Okay. Got it.

Okay. All right. Well, I think a good place to start is with our new guests. And let's go ahead and start with Amber. And I think what our listeners want to hear is a little bit more about yourself and what you've been doing in agility, how long you've been doing. Agiley what dogs you're currently competing with and all that sort of stuff.

Well, my name is Amber McCune and I'm from Amherst, New Hampshire. I've been competitively doing agility. I'd say probably for about 10 or 12 years. Obviously I got into it, you know, 20 years ago with my first dog and kind of made a mess of it, but got the bug. And now I'm completely addicted to the sport. And I couldn't imagine my life without it.

Currently, I'm competing with Kaboom who won NAC this year and last year, as well as his half-brother typo, which I compete at 24 C and a slew of other dogs that are all somehow related to notch. My original border Collie, who is just my love and my life, but I pretty much do this sport because my dogs are addicted to it as much as I do.

And I think it's an amazing gift that we can compete in a sport that our teammates, which just happened to be animals. Love it. As much as we do coming from the horse world, horses will do it because we asked them to, but let's face it. They'd rather stand outside and graze, but dogs are dogs want to do this? They're just as excited as we are.

So that's the main reason I do agility. Well, that's interesting. I didn't know that about horses. Yeah, I know. And, and I love that perspective. I mean, I think all of us have that experience of seeing how much our dogs enjoy it. You, you know, that you have dogs that just, you know, turn on in the ring,

you know, they looked so happy, so driven, so excited, but I hadn't really thought about that as, as being as beautiful as you just made it seem and sound. Oh, well, that's the only reason we do this sport, right. Is because our teammates absolutely love it as much as we do. Yeah. And our other, yes.

Here, Betsy runs dogs that are comparable in size to horses. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? We actually announced over Facebook that you are one of our two new sponsored athletes, and this is going to be your first introduction to the podcast. I think you've been on the podcast before though, right. As a guest, or is this your first time on the podcast as well?

Totally the first time. Okay. Well then definitely tell us a little bit about yourself and your own background in agility, As you said, I'm Betsy Lynch and I live in Delaware, Ohio, and I have been doing agiley for 26 years now. I have been attending nationals for most of that time with some significant breaks. I am only running Lark,

who is a five-year-old Pappy on at this time. But prior to that, I ran Ren, who is Lark's aunt. I got involved doing agility when a friend wanted something to do together and she'd dropped out immediately. And here I am, 26 years later still doing it and still very hooked on the sport. And this year was a repeat win for Lark.

So it was her second national agility championship. And then tell us how many times you won nationals with Ren Ren one, three consecutive years. I believe it was 2016 through 2018 for LARC was third in 2019. We didn't have it in 2020. And then LARC has one in 20, 21 and 2022. Right. So from our perspective, like Betsy is just very quietly under the radar.

One of the most successful handlers in AKC agility history with, with five national agility champions championship. So congratulations on, on that career and just going right from, from Ren to Lark and, and all of that success. And then in there you've also had wins at the Westminster trial as well, correct? Yes. They've both won a Westminster once and that was ran in 2016 and Lark in 2021.

Well, congratulations. That's amazing. And I know that you said it, but just to highlight so that someone's choke makes a little bit more sense that you run in the eight inch class with That is very small cap. Yeah, That's right. Well, let's talk a little bit about this event. What is everybody's I guess, perspective on like, you all have a long history running at AKC nationals,

so you have lots of events that you've been to. So what are your thoughts on this event in particular? What made it different, better, worse than other AKC national events that you've been to? So I had the privilege last year of attending the premier cup that was also held at the world equestrian facility. So I had a really good idea of what the layout was going to be and a really good idea of what the surface was going to be,

which I think is something that was a big deal for those who had never been there before. So we've had these past nationals at Tulsa so frequently that I feel like most people know what to expect. They know where the rings are, where the crating is, what hotels they like. And for this, it was the first time AKC nationals had been held there and there was kind of this extra added excitement or anxiety of the facility.

And for me personally, I love the world of question center. I think it has a lot of great features for a big event like this. I liked that it's only in two different buildings, so they do two arenas and they do three rings in each. And they're kind of connected a little hallway. The stalls are pretty close. I mean, we had some downpours of rain on two of the days and you can get everywhere onsite without going out in the rain.

So the stalls connect to the arenas and the arenas connect to each other. So that was quite convenient. There were options on site for eating and shopping. The stalls were really big and relatively clean, although that's probably just because this facility is new. And then for the surface, the surface was brand new for so many dogs in so many teams. It's kind of like a sand felt mixture.

I'm not a horse person, so I don't have the technical term. And I think that was AKC. His biggest challenge was coming to a facility with a brand new surface and not really sure exactly how it was going to hold up. They allotted these breaks to kind of groom the surface. They brought in people whose only job was to come in and manage the surface.

The biggest thing that I'd say about the surfaces, all in all, I liked it, but it did depend a lot on like kind of where within the grooms you were. So they were trying to groom the surface every two hours. If I recall from the schedule, one arena was on the, like even 8 30, 10 30, 12 30, the other arena was like 9 30, 11 30, 1 30.

If you were relatively quick after the groom, it was really great. If you were at the end of the sec, a two hour chunk, it definitely got soft and got deep. And I felt like over the three days, it was much better on Friday, then Sunday, like it was really, really packed and really smooth on Friday. And you just got harder and harder to control overall.

I thought that the surface was good. I think they learned a lot. And I think AKC had a lot of reservations about it in terms of what to expect. And I think that's kind of been the big thing that I've heard people talking about was the surface. And then the other thing was like the technology and the tech end of getting the live running orders and the live results and the real-time stuff.

They did kind of have a big crash. I think it was Sunday. And that really made things hard for people who were trying to keep track of the rings from their stall or from their hotel or from the restaurant or whatever. For me, I was always just down at the rings, constantly walking from ring to ring them. And I'm not going to spend all this time and energy and money to get to a big event and miss my run.

So yeah, it might've been more convenient if the technology would have been working, but go back a few years and we didn't have that. So, you know, we, we used to do it without any of that. And you would just have your run order and you wouldn't see what number you are and keep track of it that way. So all in all,

I thought it went well, could I improve on things? Sure. But almost any event you could say, what would be nice if this was happened or that would happen. But I thought it was a really well-run event. They did a great job. They tried their hardest. It wasn't like they just set up, well, it's not working. Sorry.

They were trying to get the surface, trying to get the tech good. And I would love to see them come back to this facility. So I was pretty pleased with that. It was a very comparable event to many other AKC national events in the past. Well, let me stay here for a moment and talk about the surface because surface is such a big deal and agility maybe today,

more so than, than in past years. And let me ask Bessie, this question, is this as big a deal in your opinion for eight inch or very small dogs or lightweight dogs as it is for as big dog people who some of us can get really fixated on the surface. Yes. I think it's every bit as big of a deal and a lot of people worried about it,

but I think some of those worries were pretty unfounded. I felt the surface held up really well. It certainly helped that the little dogs were never following the big dogs. So there wasn't all of that chewing up by the weak holes and stuff. The only chewing up was by other smaller dogs. And yes, you would notice it if you were near,

we were running very late, near a regroup. It got a little bit bogged down. I saw LARC a couple of times, you know, struggled to get our feet under, but it wasn't anything too terribly bad and not anything that wouldn't have happened on other dirt as well. I absolutely loved the surface. I thought maybe we'd see more wasteful errors among the,

the smaller dogs, but we really didn't. And I thought the surface ran fantastic for the handlers and for the dogs. Yeah. That was about to be my next question was that sometimes we hyper-focus on the dogs and, and we need to pay attention to the handlers too. Cause they have to get around that course. So I'm, I'm glad to hear you say that you felt like for you,

you know, as the human that you enjoyed running on that surface. Yeah. Or the same shoes that I wear with on turf, I didn't have to make any adjustments for shoes with better tread or anything like that. I can just do as, as I always do. And it felt great to run on my legs were not sore at the end of the day,

which is a big change and all in all, I love the surface. I had run on that same surface, not the same place, but at the same surface and the premier cup in 2019. And I liked it there as well. So I felt that my dog would run fairly well on the surface without having run on it in the in-between period.

Okay. Well, that's pretty interesting. And now I'm going to ask Amber here, had you run at this particular venue before that's number one, you're going to get a bunch of questions right here. So have you had you run it there before and number two and maybe this will segue a little bit into a course design. I felt the finals course was a little bit spread out a little bigger and a little more yardage maybe than in previous years,

a little more running. And you're out there running in both 20 inch. You re you had a dog in 2018 and 24. Yeah. I had 20, 24, 24 C and finals. Right. Okay. So you're writing at the two biggest Heights. What were your thoughts on the surface for you? And I used to, one other thing I'll throw in for every everyone can think about it.

So Jen, Jen, and Bessie can think about it while Amber answers it. First as the spectator, I noticed that the surface is really white on the, on the stream. It looked like white sands, like beach white sand. And I'm always thinking about the weave poles and how easy or difficult it is to see, you know, some of the uprights PVC,

which is generally white and every time a dog made an error, especially when I started seeing some of the broad jump errors and the finals, I always wondered like, is it, is it that the, the, the surface is so white and appearance that it might be impacting the dog? So Amber, lots of questions there. What do you think?

Well, I ran it at the, on the, I ran it, the premier cup when Jen and Betsy were there as well, Could not weave on that white surface with a white base. I apparently had a huge hole that I have never experienced because let's face it. We always train on a contrast to the base. Nine out of 10 times we have a white green floor or a white base on grass or a black mat.

I had never trained my dog on the same color base as the floor. So that was a huge hole that the pro premier cup actually taught me. So since then, we've done a lot of training and I don't think my dogs had an issue, you know, with the basis or with weaving at all, but definitely running one of the tallest border collies there.

And I was one of the last ones to go. And one of the rounds, the wheat balls definitely were very, very deep when Kaboom ran and typo ran and coming from the horse world. I know that we have jumped crew that tamps, you know, in the areas where the horses have to do very tight rollbacks in terms. And I think AKC tried really hard to do what they could,

but if they could just have a jump crew that just fills in the weeds, I think that's really the only place that there was any major issues for the large dogs, especially the sea dogs were really swimming through those poles and really making big divots. And most of our dogs are so used to training on laser level turf or rubber floors or even super level grass.

We're, we're also programmed that everything's level everything's level. We all need to do more training with uneven surfaces and especially, you know, surfaces that don't contrast as well. Like you said, with the broad jump, I think for the premiere cup years ago, it, the dogs could not really see the contrast in bars. There was a ton of bars for dogs that never dropped bars during that event.

And I think the dogs kind of figured it out for this one. They kind of understood the contrast and I love the surface. Don't get me wrong. I think it's absolutely wonderful. And I hope it, Casey goes there again. But my favorite part of the whole venue besides how beautiful it is and how amazing it is is the fact that our dogs are barely on any concrete floor.

Whenever we're walking from Barnes, a barn that is crushed rubber and underneath all of that beautiful Euro foot felt, you know, surface are running on is a foot of crushed rubber. My legs were not tired hardly at all. My dogs were not sore. I mean, so many places we go in our dogs are created on asphalt or tar stalls because that's the commonality with all these big places.

But the world equestrian center has crushed rubber everywhere. So horses, dogs, us, we are constantly walking on a surface that is just as giving as the surface we're running on. And I think that's honestly the best part of the, of the facility is that we didn't have tired knees. Our dogs didn't have tired legs. Think about you're obviously will always walking on concrete,

concrete at Tulsa. You're just by the end of the day, your feet are aching. You know, here, you're always walking on rubber in something that gives you a little spring. So I think it's an amazing venue. Yeah, I was there and I had no idea until you, until you just educated me. So that's, that's really interesting.

And, and then, you know, because you led off the podcast with letting us know that you're the horse expert among us, can you kind of describe that surface for people or kind of explain like what that surface is? Well, I'm not a complete expert. It's been a few years when I was riding and do I did jumpers with horses. So it's a lot like dogs,

right? Except we're riding on their back instead of running next to them, there's a crushed rock base. And then above that is a foot or a foot and a half of ground rubber. And then above that is a foot or two, depending on what type of surface you purchase of the sand wax felt mixture. So besides the foot of sand, your dog has spring underneath,

your horse has spring underneath. So it's a super forgiving surface for any human dog force, whoever runs on it, it just has to be groomed appropriately for whatever animal, whether it's us or the dog that's running on it. Obviously the horses, you leave it a little, just a little fluffier because we don't care if they dig it up a little bit.

And our dogs are so used to running on laser level. I mean, I'm, I'm the queen of it. I run here laser level floor every day. So we as handlers have to be better about exposing our dogs to different surfaces and different undulations in those surfaces so that they can make adjustments in their striding, but it is absolutely the most amazing surface when it comes to physicality and keeping your dog safe.

It really is a great, great service. Yeah. And when, when I was there, one thing that, that Jen just made me think of when she was describing the two arenas with the three rings in each arena, was that there was plenty of space for the rings. So I think it's Tulsa, right? That has like the one ring off by itself.

That's much smaller than all of the others, like noticeably smaller. And it's really difficult, right? It affects the build and it's especially difficult when the large, the 20th and the 20 fours have to rotate through their bars, come down more often. Like it is compressed. It is, you know, absolutely compressed compared to the other rings. And here,

I felt like, like there was a lot more consistency from ring to ring, to ring in terms of like size and ability to, to build out to the appropriate, you know, the way the course map was meant to be. Yeah. Let me ask Amber a quick followup question. So did your experience here, obviously winning is great. Experience changed the way you thought about your performance at premier cup?

Oh yes. I, I realized for the premiere cup, I had lots of holes that I hadn't even thought about training. I didn't realize that my dogs followed a white base and now I realize painting a base green and having green poles on green turf with green walls in my facility has definitely helped my dogs understand that it's, you know, swallowing through the sticks,

not follow the white base on the floor. And I know following a base is very common for little dogs. I never thought it would be common for a 22 inch tall border Collie, but you know, they only know what we teach them and we go to dog shows so we can see what holes in our training that we need to fix. Let's face it.

That's why we, that's why we go to dog shows. So I'm extremely happy with how all of my dogs performed on the surface, as well as on the equipment. There's definitely two types of equipment that's there and the dogs handle all of it really, really well. Yeah. I love that perspective because for a lot of people who are listening, who are relatively new to the sport,

you know, you may run into situations where you don't do well. And then you kind of are prone to blame the facility, to blame the course, designed to blame the particular judge, the weather. There are many different things that you can lay the blame on. And, and Amber comes in here with this great attitude. I think there's a deficit in my,

in my training and my agility and I'm going to go fix it. She does. And then she immediately gets paid for those efforts with a couple of national championships. So, you know, I think that's just such a great approach and attitude to have. Okay. Now I want to transition over to what everyone thought of the course designs. And the first question I'm going to ask,

and we're just going to go bang, bang, bang, no explanations. Just give your answer where to start with Jennifer, which course was the hardest. So rounds 1, 2, 3, which, which course did you feel was the most challenging or difficult? Easy answer. Jumpers. Jumpers. Okay. Betsy, what do you think? I think standard because it required a very long lado Jumper just cause there was one turn in there that was definitely the devil for me.

Oh, okay. Is that the same time that you're thinking of Jennifer in your head or you're not sure. Well, I actually had a conversation with Amber at the event about that same turn, so I know exactly what ones she's talking about. And I used her feedback before I ran, helped my dog get around and ended up running clean. So thank you for that,

Amber. But yeah, there was a lot more things that needed to be done on a jumpers. You know, we did the before and after. So there was a lot of map analysis and on the standard and the hybrid, there was only for me three turns each like three side changes on those and in jumpers I had a lot more, so I just kind of attribute that to being Carter because of the degree of turns,

but the number of turns, the things that had to happen. Okay. Interesting. Okay. Next question. On choruses, even though our listeners can't see it, I'm going to have all of you just raise your hands very quickly. Which of you ran challengers also in addition to finals, like how to challenge a red. Okay. So just our two big die handlers.

Okay. So Betsy will be excused from this round of questioning pertains to challenges. And we'll start with Jennifer, Jennifer thinking about the challenge around course design. Was it easier, harder or the same compared to the last couple of years? I felt like when I looked at the course map, so when I first just looked at the map, I felt that it was easier than last year.

I ran dogs and challengers last year and this year I thought, okay, well this one's going to be a little bit easier, but when it actually got built, and then when I started running it and I started watching dogs running it, I actually don't know that the cue rate was any higher than it has been in past years. And I attribute some of that,

not just to the course design, but the mentality of challenges. Right. All or nothing, go for it, lay it all on the line, push and go for it. But I liked the course. So on the map I thought, oh, this is a little bit easier than last year. It's got challenges. It was definitely harder than rounds one through three,

but it was easier than last year. But then when it came down to it, I mean, there were some tricky spots. I mean, the we full entry itself did not nearly look as difficult on paper as it ended up being set up. And I just watched a ton of dogs have trouble there. And then the line off the Teeter around to the backside on paper just looked like a long straight line,

but a lot of people got stuck managing their Teeter and struggling on the backside. So I thought of it ended up being a really good challengers course. I liked the course in the end. I liked the course. I was a little worried when I saw the map, but I liked how it ran Or, or, or not managing the Teeter to get to the backside and then getting the call.

I was up in the stands and it was interesting because we just did the podcast with Shayla and we literally talked about how teeters are called and how they should be called at nationals. And in the odd, it was interesting to watch the audience there. Their reactions changed because there were some calls on the Teeter and, and the crowd was grumbling. You know,

like the crowds, the audience, generally, doesn't like to see close calls. You know, we always, as an audience, we tend to favor the dog, right? The dog and the handler team. You want to see them succeed. And so there was starting to be some grumbling about things being called and then, and then once it became clear that it was being called very tight,

which we've discussed in that podcast is appropriate, right? Like there is a legal and non-legal Teeter, right? And so once it became clear what was being called, then you started to see the audience shift to really cheering for the dogs that nailed it. Like obviously nailed it. Like the handler didn't even, you know, do any management, the dogs stuck it,

they released, they were in perfect position and the crowd would go wild. So, you know, watching the audience move from being disappointed to really cheering on the teams with the skills was kind of fun from my perspective. All right. Well now I want to ask same question for Amber. What did you think of the challenge around compared to previous years?

Well, I was in challenges last year as well with typo, not Kaboom. And that course I have to say was one of my favorite courses of all time. I, I, not that this year wasn't wonderful, but last year we got to run three quarters of the way around that entire ring, full tilt. And the dogs were just grinning from ear to ear.

And I was just panting because I was so out of breath, but I thought that was fun for the crowd fund for the dogs really showed really, really good extension and collection and skills this year. It was a great course. It definitely, like Jennifer said was different on paper than it was when I walked it. I thought I could easily serve this,

the A-frame and get around it. And then once I went out there and it was built, I thought, oh my gosh, that's very, very far. I can't make it over there. And that we eventually was definitely a hard for a lot of dogs. I think a lot of people did not pay attention to that we've entry. And when they walked it,

they saw it on paper and said, oh, it'll be fine. And then just assume their dogs are going to grab it. And the dogs 100% were pointing to pull two and three. They, they really had to change their lead and crank their body around to get in there appropriately. So I thought it was a great course. I think all of the courses that AKC designed this past weekend were wonderful.

They're very see very, exactly what you would expect and the dogs love running them as long as they have an opportunity to really open up compress and open up again. I think it's a really good representation of our sport. Hmm. Okay. That's I think that's some great commentary there for everyone. And when I think about the sport, I'm thinking about how in recent years now we've really moved towards these big events being on TV.

And I think that adds this dynamic layer to just a competition that you're not going to get at local trials. And so now we're going to, I'm going to start with Betsy. I'm going to ask each of you about this. You are all winners, both at the national agility championship for AKC, but also for Westminster. So between running in the finals in Westminster and running in the finals here at NAC is one venue,

more high pressure to you than the other, or are they equivalent Betsy? Let's start with you. I think NAC has to be more high pressure because it means so much and Westminster has more hoop laws surrounding it, which does, and it's going to be so widely viewed that it does bring some pressure to the situation. But for me, I think I probably feel a little bit more pressure at Mac than I do at Westminster,

but I, I love them the pressure of both events. Interesting. That's an interesting comment because at Westminster you're right. The cameras are there. You see everybody with the microphone. So at NAC then are you also like very aware as a president in your mind, Hey, this is also going to be viewed by a fairly large audience. This is going to be put,

put out later. In fact, aren't they going to edit it and put it out on ESPN later? Right? So there's going to be a one hour or two hour or however many hour production of the entire, you know, NAC. But is it that, you know, having done so many NACS for so many years, you're just kind of in that NAC mindset.

And you're not really thinking about that in the same way as Westminster. What do you, what do you think Bezy? I do believe that television adds a lot of pressure, too. A lot of competitors. It definitely changes their mindset when they run. I think I've gotten really used to it, but I think Westminster is a bit more, I don't want to say in your face,

but it's so much more visible that it's being taped, that it's, you know, it's going to be televised. And so you're kind of thinking about that more than NAC NAC, you're really trying for a national championship. And the fact that it's televised just happens to come along with it. Gotcha. Interesting. Okay. Jennifer, what do you think?

I would very much agree that from a pressure standpoint, NAC means a lot more to me and I feel a lot more like internal pressure to do well while I love to do well at Westminster. If I don't, I just maybe miss an opportunity to be on TV or, you know, to celebrate that where for NAC, I mean, that's what we go to AKC trials for.

We qualify for, we work our butt off to, to get ready for it. I don't do anything to get ready for Westminster, but I feel like Westminster has a lot more energy. Like I went in Westminster finals. I mean, when, when we really think about like the finals, like the finals is, is made for television, right?

The finals doesn't come as a queue. It doesn't count as a title in front of our dog's name. It's the made for television. And like the way I think of it, when I'm there, it's like, you know, the lights around the ring are like Dem, then the lights over the ring are really big and the cameras are right there and there's,

you know, more of the, the made for TV. And I, I always say like, oh, Westminster, no big deal. And then I get there. I'm like, oh my gosh, the energy, the excitement, the crowds, the cheering we're NAC. I'm very much like in my own, like Headspace, like I look back now even just a few days ago and I'm like,

Hmm, I forgot it was going to be on TV. I probably should have tried a little bit harder with, you know, a few things to like, make myself look better on television. Where once I had a mistake, I was like, oh, well we had a mistake. What does it matter? We'll just keep going with more mistakes.

And now I'm like, oh, that's going to look really bad on TV. But in the moment, I wasn't thinking that because I wasn't thinking about television and I was thinking about AKC and NACY national championship getting qualified. So I agree with Betsy, there's definitely an entire element added to the television part of things. And I think it's great for our sport to get the publicity.

But for me personally, the NAC carries a lot more pressure where Westminster carries a lot more for sake of a better word energy. Yeah. That's interesting. And that's kind of what I was wondering if you guys, weren't going to just kind of in your default mindset where you kind of forget that now NAC is going to be on TV. Amber, what's your experience between those two?

Well, I feel like when we're at NAC, this is what we do for a living. So this is our job. We're there to compete. We're there to win in a best case scenario. And like Betsy said, TV just happens to be a by-product of there. And it's kind of second thought. So I'm at NEC to work. When I go to Westminster,

I feel more pressure because I feel that we are there to make it on TV, to help our businesses because I have to look at it from the pet side of it, right. More people are going to want there. Therefore my business is going to get more views in that sense. So I feel in my heart more pressure when I am at Westminster because of probably the hoopla and the energy,

and I easily get sucked into that, the craziness and the mayhem, and, you know, I've been out at the incredible dog challenge probably 15 times now and there's cameras everywhere, but it's not the same as Westminster. Like you said, the lights dim, the lights are shining on you. And every pet person understands what Westminster is. They don't really understand the agility part of it,

but they've heard the word and they know it's something big in the dog world. So I think coming from the business side of it, I feel more pressure because I think my business will succeed. You know, gain more business from a Westminster win. Plus if you win, then you get to stay. Jennifer knows you get to stay for a couple of days and then come down into Madison square garden and wearing a dress.

And you know, there is this big poopless surrounding it. And at NAC, yes, I want that national championship, but I'm there to work. I don't think about the TV versus Westminster. That's all you can think about is the fact that, you know, you can't walk this way cause the cords and the TV is this way. And you know,

if you happen to be sponsored by any of the sponsors, they're like Purina, you definitely have that added stress onto you that you now need to do well because you know, they want you in the finals because you were sponsored by them. So there's definitely more stress for me at Westminster. That's interesting because even from a spectator's point of view, they're very,

very different events. Like Westminster. The majority of spectators are non agility competitors that are there to watch Westminster and they don't know exactly what they're watching. And they cheer at different things than competitors cheer at, right? They, they love mistakes. They love the big, you know, the weaves, the contacts, you know, but they also think it's adorable when a dog parks at the top and won't come down and there's laughter like you don't,

the competitors do not laugh at you no matter what your dog does, right? Like your fellow competitors do not laugh, but you will get laughter from the crowd. Not, not malicious in any way, but just they're enjoying themselves. They're enjoying the event and then nationals, you have a lot of spectators, but they are almost all the other competitors.

You are basically down there in the finals, performing in front of your peers and your peers are cheering for you and they want to see you do well. And you have, everybody has their people, right? Like every single person in finals has a group of their friends or people from their area of country who are going to cheer extra loud from that for them,

or stand up at the beginning with their sign, you know, like that kind of thing that doesn't happen at Westminster. So even the spectating is different. I think between those two events. Yeah. That's yeah. That's really interesting. You know, I've run in the finals at both events at Westminster as the top seed and not winning it, unlike the three ladies here and NAC,

but that was before they started putting it back on The team. Right. So there would be a stream. So you know, that people are watching on a stream. And I think back then maybe like somewhere between a thousand, 2000 people are watching the final stream at any given time, but I very much relate to what all three of you are saying.

And especially Amber, you know, I remember I I'm there trying to win the NAC, you know, and it it's, it's not exactly a job, but it's a job like approach I guess, is, is the way that I would put it for myself. And you know, you're like, you're there to handle business. Whereas a Westminster there's a little more,

it's a little more, it's a little more like dessert. It's like less the job that, that a main course might be, you know, like this is your meal, this is your, this is your protein and your carbon, you know, Westminster is a little bit more like a dessert to me. So I think that's kind of how I think about that.

Okay. The next thing I wanted to ask everyone, and we're going to start again with Betsy. We're going to back to the finals course. So think back finals course. You're you're at the walkthrough, you're looking at it. What did you think of the spacing between obstacles on that finals course? Is it something that you noticed you felt was tight you felt was maybe more spacious than usual because on the stream,

the core seemed a little bit bigger in some spots that I was used to seeing it. I didn't know if it was an illusion based on the vast emptiness of the ring outside of, you know, the, the equipment, the rest of the arena, you know, to say, so Betsy, what did you think? I definitely thought it was very spread out,

which is good. I mean, even for my size dog, it's nice to have a course that really lets them open up and run. You do have to with a dog. So small, be careful. You don't accidentally push them to the backside on some of these big gaps, because it's very easy to do that. Particularly like on the opening one too,

there were some dogs that went and caught the backside and then on the certainty, you have to make sure your dog stays on the correct side of the jump, smaller dogs. You know, they have a smaller turning arch. So with the handler moves a little bit out of position, you know, you could get a dog that defaulted to the backside.

I thought the final scores was great, fun to run. It really, really let the dogs open up and go. And there was a few handling choices primarily at the beginning. And the end. Interesting, you know, this was a year where, when I looked at the eight inch results, we didn't have that almost 100% cure rate, you know,

the eight inch classes, a lot of great handlers. And I think there are people maybe even myself who would think, well, if you increase the spacing, there's going to be even fewer opportunities to have errors that that might lead to NQS. But the cure rate, I think was actually a little bit lower than at least in some of the previous past year.

So that's pretty interesting. Okay. So Jennifer, you ran it at different Heights. So I think you have a unique perspective here. First, let everyone know what Heights you ran the finals course at. And then what are your opinions on the spacing and design? So I had five dogs in the finals. I had one eight inch, two twelves and two twenties.

So in terms of spacing, it definitely was a lot more of something to take into account with the eight inch dog, because of all the points that Betsy made. It was a bigger spacing than they are used to. I felt I don't factually know that I didn't wheel it, but the distance is like, especially on one to two, seem to much greater than what we're used to,

where the spacing for the big dogs was. If I say more relaxed, it allowed them to open up. It allowed them to jump out a more natural arc versus being really compressed. So I felt more comfortable running the larger dogs, the 20 inch dogs. And I did the smaller dogs. I thought the smaller dogs had maybe in several more strides than they would've normally put in.

But I did think that the finals course ran very consistent with the preliminary rounds of 1, 2, 3 in terms of difficulty, which I was a little bit surprised about because in my mind, I don't know what the judges are told, but in my mind, I always think of the challengers and the finals as being more difficult than rounds. One through three, like especially last year,

last year's finals was way harder than what we saw in ones two and three. And when I saw the finals course, I thought that the finals course could've just as easily been in one of the preliminary rounds. So, you know, I mentioned earlier about that idea of like three crosses that needed to occur that happened in hybrid and in a standard. And the same thing happened in challenges.

There was basically a cross that needed to happen between three and three to five, right. Three and four there from the tunnel to the jump, something after the A-frame and then something on the last serpentine. So there were three skills that needed to be done. We didn't see any backsides. We arguably saw threadle on number two, depending on how you had to handle it.

The backside tunnel on number three was a bit unique. It's not an illegal skill in AKC. We just don't see it a lot. But a lot of the sections I thought were very normal, very average. You know, you had a serpentine off of the team there you had from dogwalk tyer broad jump A-frame jumped as kind of like a nice little arc.

We didn't see a really strong tunnel threadle there, wasn't like a really strong tunnel threadle that we had to pull it up to on any of the courses. If I recall, which was something that I did a lot of prepping for and a lot of training for, and it just wasn't needed. So I liked the final scores. I liked the flow.

It was big, it was fast. It was exciting. It was a little bit easier than what I was prepared for. Not that I'm complaining about that. I just, if somebody said, okay, go prepare for finals. I would have been practicing some more difficult and harder skills. So I liked the course. I just was surprised at the difference and difficulty from last year's finals to this year's finals.

That's the biggest thing that I would say as far as course design. Interesting. And Amber, I've been watching you for years, been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time because you don't just run big dogs in the sense that when someone has a 20 inch border Collie, they say, oh, that person's running runs big dogs. You know,

you have border collies that actually measure into 24 inches. And so tell me a little bit about what you think about the finals. Well, I ran a 20 inch dog and 2 24 is a true 24 whose Kaboom is 22 and a half inches tall. So he is a big dog. And then I ran typo in 24 C who I think actually has a bigger stride than even Kaboom,

I think with the big, big dogs. So the 20 fours, 24 sees the dogs that are really in full extension. I think it actually made the dogs kinda miscalculate some of the distances. I know typo nailed his head into the tire. He thought he was Superman. And cause there was such a big distance. He thought he could open up more.

I know a lot of the 20 inch dogs, some of the 20 fours were hitting the long jump. Like you mentioned before, was it, was it the contrast of the white and the sands or was it the, that's a wonderfully large space for our dogs to open up and they're so used to being compressed in our typical ring size that they thought,

oh, I can make it. And they couldn't. I loved the spacing, but I think a lot of handlers didn't take into account. The off-course jumped before the A-frame for the really big dogs, because we're now in this gigantic extension stride going from dogwalk to tire to long jump, they just assume their dogs are going to turn and take the A-frame.

But the dogs were just so excited that they were in extension and the lines were so lovely for them. That, that off course, just bit, so many big dogs. I think the SERP line is always a wonderful, wonderful, you know, trait or skill for my dogs. They love to do syrup lines. It's very easy on the big dogs because they can take up as much distance as they need on the bar.

The start points are definitely harder for the little dogs like Betsy was saying, but my dogs love the distances, but I think it definitely did cause more issues than some of the big dog people thought because they did not think through how much that full extension is coming from. The momentum of the dogwalk was going to come into account. I know I didn't want the tire.

I could have, you know, definitely supported that line better for typo rather than just flinging him at it and running away like alluded lunatic. You know, I think they needed a little bit more help that yes, you're in full extension, but you still need to be mindful of where we're going and of, of your bars. Yeah, no doubt.

I think there's always a transition. I remember even a several years ago, getting ready for some of the team tryout events for EO or agility, world championship, you know, the courses are so much bigger spacious. There's more yardage is very different. The field is very different to these dogs. And I really sense a post coming from hopefully Jennifer, maybe myself or Sarah talking about that sequence that you mentioned because you have that extending obstacle.

Anytime you hit the tire, the broad job, even the panels, you know, dogs tend to naturally extend to clear it, right? And then you've got this turn and you've got the trap staring you in the face and it might be a little bit different for an eight inch dog. So this is, this is such a great, great little topic.

So I'm going to have Betsy weigh in here. So from the eight inch perspective that turned into the A-frame big deal or not a big deal when you were coming through the walkthrough, Certainly I called her hard there and gave her a right command, but it wasn't as big of a deal as it was for the big dogs for certain. I mean, they just have more strides to get the turn in and thus they have more strides if they were going to go off course.

So it wasn't as big of a deal as it was for the big dogs by far. But I did give her a strong right command after the broad jump there to make sure she knew she was turning right as I just took off. Right. And listening to Amber talk to it. It kind of occurred to me that it usually, this is the kind of thing that we think of after the fact,

but dogs are, they really do internalize the spacing. And we have a blog post that I'll actually link to in the show notes about traps, where there is an, an obvious obstacle that's in the normal spacing. And the next real obstacle is, is in different spacing, right? And the dogs learn to anticipate it. But I think it's not just about which obstacle they take listening to,

to Amber talk. I think that dogs, the, the range that's legal is kind of small in AKC. The dogs are typically going to see the same amount of distance between obstacles. And so I bet there are lots of dogs where they're like, it's always two strides and then take off, especially these big dogs, right? It's stride, stride,

take off stride, stride, take off and you give them more space. And they're like, stride, stride take off. And they're way too far away from the jump. So that's what I imagined when Amber talks about her dog, supermanning it? Right. He was probably just used to, it's all like I have muscle memory that I land stride.

Take off again, land stride, take off again. And, and so I think that that can be it's, there's just so much nuance to the sport. It can be really interesting. I see Amber nodding her head. Yeah. They said dog training is just teaching dogs patterns, right? How many patterns can we teach them? And 100% dogs,

especially in AKC, understand what pattern of this, the pinwheel I'm going to take one stride between each one of these jumps in the pinwheel. And especially if you show in the same venue, I know Jennifer and I both have facilities that we show a lot in our own facilities. I know for a fact that my dog knows how many strides he can take on that ending line every time on the AKC cars.

So us as handlers, we need to start teaching them, okay, this is not the typical pattern pattern, right? This is not what you normally see. It was my job to let him know prior to that tire that no, you're not going to be able to fit two strides there, add or give yourself a little bit more oath. So,

you know, I, I really 100% agree with you that they learn patterns as to how many strides between how many strides across the ring until I get to the A-frame they know. Well, before that we think we're telling them, you know, they know 100% where they're going six obstacles before we've even queued it. Right. Right. And then the other thing that I wanted to circle back,

cause we've, we've just kind of thrown out a mention of the broad several times, but I actually found that like I was like, oh wow. Abroad. And we've all had been, had an experience that this is what I, this is what I wanted to bring up because we all have all of us on this podcast have decades of experience with AKC nationals.

And I remember that it was, everybody was like, you have to work abroad before nationals. You have to work abroad before nationals. The broad is going to be at nationals, but we do this prep course for nationals. And we used to be telling everybody, you got to work abroad, you got to work abroad. You got, got to work the broad,

but we started putting statistics together. And over the years it was like, the broad might be there, but it's only been there. You know, it was there three years ago and it hasn't been there since it was there four years ago. It hasn't been there since it's been there. So I went back and pulled up our prep course for this year.

And we said, the broad jump has appeared just once and not in the past six years. So all of us remember that time. Yeah. You know what that means? It means AKC official in the course. And they said, guys, I'm going to put in a bride job. No, one's going to be ready for it. Right. And so,

you know, we do say, you know, it might be there, but statistically, the trend has been that it hasn't been in recent years, even though I think all of us just like you, you were like, wait, no, it there's always abroad. Not in recent years there hasn't been. So what did, did, did that jump out at anybody or were y'all just like,

oh, fraud. I wasn't particularly worried when I saw it. Also, I say that my dog faulted it, that was, that was high fives. Mistake in the finals is the broad job. I wasn't, well that wasn't her only mistake I screwed her up, but she hit that. And I wasn't worried. I mean, I honestly, wasn't worried about that.

And I know I had a disconnect there because she did not meet criteria on the dogwalk, which was two obstacles before, in my mind. What, wait a minute. That wasn't what you were supposed to do. Oh, crap. We're over here at the broad jump. I don't know if it was surfaced related and when, I mean surface the contrast,

right. Then the white surface, the color. I don't know if it was the disconnect. I don't know what caused it, but I wasn't worried about it, but then she did hit it. So she turned in too tight. Maybe some consciously I was worried about the off force and was trying to pull her to the A-frame cause she'd turned into tight,

but it's not something that typically worries me. I know that all three of us do venues beyond AKC or organizations beyond AKC, where we see the broad jump a bit more. So I feel like, you know, I'm, I'm usually pretty prepared for, we did do a lot of work for it at my facility before nationals to get the students ready for it.

So, yeah, I wasn't worried yet. I had a mistake on it. Interesting. In a big turn to right after the, I used it. They're used to seeing the project, you have a clear straight approach. And for the most part you have a very straight or slight turn exit. Right? I was going to say that as a,

as a spectator and watching the entire class run, I think that it's not the broad jump in and of itself. That's the problem, but it was kind of the follow on very subtle effects, right? The fact that it puts the dog more and even more an extension and then opens the off-course jump. The fact that it makes the turn to the A-frame a little bit harder.

I think those are the kind of the second level challenges that we don't always like instantly recognize. Oh, I like it. I liked that it was there. You know, if you don't like it, then get rid of it as the non obstacle course, One thing that I wanted to touch on and then, and then we will walk through and congratulate the,

the rest of the winners as well. But you as seven were watching from home. So you're the only one of us because the live stream was taken down in anticipation. Like people could watch it live, but then it was taken down because it will be aired on ESPN. That's my understanding. So none of us have seen the live stream. So what were,

what was your perspective on the live stream Mixed as usual? The non-graded part of the live stream is the same part that hasn't been good for the last couple of years and not just at this particular competition. And it's the cuts of the camera, right? It's the camera work. And I think at some point there has to be some respect for the intelligence of the viewer.

You cannot continue to tell me, well, Hey, what the viewers want to see are tight closeups of the dog. We can give Ty closeups of the dog before the run, after the run, maybe on the dogwalk. I think maybe the wee poles is okay, but otherwise let's zoom out enough where we can see the action where we can see the Hanley and not just to see the handling.

What I'm saying is you would not zoom in on a football so tightly that you want to see the face of the running back or the wide receiver that's for replays instant replays. When you show them doing one cool thing, like diving over the goal line to score a touchdown, but otherwise you need to be zoomed out. So people have some sense for the action,

right? For the strategy involved in the game, because what you are looking at ESPN, when you signed these five-year deals with the AKC is really grooming your audience and growing them in the sport, right? So you're one, you have X viewership, year two. You want to increase the viewership by 15% and maybe double or triple the viewership by year five.

And the way you do that is bringing back the same viewers over and over and over again, right? Football fans. You explain it to them. They say, Hey, you know, the sport is more than just big guys trying to hit each other. There's a strategy here. I'm very interested in it. Oh, well maybe they should have done this.

Maybe they should've done that. And then by the fifth season, you're watching football. Now this person is decked out and all the team gear and they know the names of the coaches and they understand, you know, what a blitz is and what a draw play is. And they have absorbed a lot of the strategy and we're not doing that in agility.

Right. And I think that needs to change. Otherwise, this is all going to go away. It obviously depends completely on the ratings, right? As competitors, we don't want it to go away, but I, there's also a sense of, you know, we don't really care if it goes away, you know, agility is agility is going to be there.

I'm just saying from ESPN or Fox sports perspective, like you can make it better. You can take a longer view and you can be part of developing the sport in the same way that you developed other sports. Right. Different camera angles in a basketball, for example, right. Getting cameras up on the, the rim, the back board itself, instant replay,

right? Those are things that came about in conjunction with viewership, right. The viewing audiences. And so I think that can happen here and there's too much default. There's like, oh, you know, we're just going to do it the same way we did it before. Right. And I think I want to make sure that our listeners know that I think this is no fault of the AKC.

I know for a fact that Carrie, you know, that, that you're following the ball example. We got that straight from Carrie D young. She says, she's, you know, given the example of you, don't, you wouldn't follow the football, you know, and, and just follow the football around without any sense of the players around the football.

And, and, and that, that's what they're doing when they follow just the dog. Like how many empty tunnels do I want to look at? And then a second later I see a dog run, Right? So, you know, clearly the AKC knows what would make a better production. It's just, you know, the, the power to make those decisions lies with the networks.

And they're the ones that need to, to, I guess, believe us when we say that it could be better if they did things other ways. Cause I know that they've gotten, You know, what? They cover bowling and not show the pins to show the ball really up close, traveling down the lane, you would not it's idiotic. And that's what they're doing.

I agree. Maybe, maybe we should, maybe we should start an actual for real petition sign. Cause you could get literally like 90% of AKC competitors to sign a petition and then present it formally to ESPN and say the people most closely involved with the sport you're putting on TV are begging you to make a change going forward. Yeah. But see, I want to be very clear here.

I don't think I'm not calling to make this change for the competitors. Right? All of you had someone tape, it runs, Right. Are all of you are getting your runs from four legs. You're going to get your analysis. You're going to get the wide view. Right. We all are. Right. It's not really impacting us. What I'm saying is there is the,

the, the audience that doesn't know anything about agility and we're not really educating them and we can be, and that's when you turn the casual, oh, this happens to be on right now into a fan. Every March. I know this event is going to happen. Right. Right. Exactly. And they go and they cheer for their favorite breeds,

you know? And so I think there's just a missed opportunity here, you know, and just how they did that. The other striking thing to me, I had already mentioned was the color of the dirt onscreen. It looks really white. You do lose some of the PVC job weave poles. Certainly there, I think that's, that's a little bit of a thing.

And the commentary is the commentary. It's been very stable, I think with Terry doing it now. And so, you know, they're, they're in their own rhythm, Terry's got his own style and you know, we haven't seen too much change in that over the last couple of years, they did have new talent doing the interviews. So all of you after your run,

you had the guy. So he's new to me. And I'm sorry. I, I don't remember his name off the top of my head. I haven't had a chance to look them up. I'm dressed quite stylishly and at least on TV com standing next to y'all. He seemed quite, quite a big dude. And so I was wondering if like any dogs were intimidated at all being around,

you know how some guys dogs are sketchy around some guys, they get a little nervous. And I wondered if you all saw any of that or knew that from friends or students, I'm going to go down the line. And obviously we don't want to say anything mean about this dude. I, I thought he did an okay job. I thought, I thought he was okay,

but Betsy, let's start with you. What did you think of the interview? Or is it just something or you kind of prepared this year that you're like, Hey, you know, I have a little Oscar winning speech prepared here or, or, or you're just like, oh my gosh, I don't do that for superstitious reasons. I want to hear all about your thoughts on the interview.

Oh, well they don't tell you ahead of time, what they're going to ask, which is unfortunate because it certainly would make it a lot easier. I honestly didn't notice how big he was. And I don't think Lark was affected by it that I noticed, but I did feel like a, it wasn't a strong interview for me because you had just got done running this long course.

You were out of breath. I had had like one dog to kind of catch up. You have all these emotions going forward, but it just seemed like a difficult interview for me. I don't know that what he asked was bad. I just, maybe wasn't as prepared for it as I could have been. Mm I see. Okay. And, and Jennifer,

you know, one of these years, I want to see you give someone the hand, just be like, hold on. I need a second here. Let me catch my breath. Jen, what did you think? So I was in a state of shock when I won. It was the first time I've ever like cried in a national championship. It was completely thrown off.

So I was totally unprepared. I had to like compose myself. Luckily I had a few dogs to kind of catch my breath. As far as the interview questions. I thought the interview questions were fine. They were kind of the typical questions. I did feel like he seemed somewhat educated. I don't know if he was getting that information from someone else or he wasn't totally clueless.

So I was like a little bit impressed that he sorta kind of knew what he was talking about. I also personally liked that he made a sports reference. He asked about football pertaining to my numbers, which I only think gives us like a little more credibility. Like, Ooh, we're a sport. He wasn't comparing us to cheerleading comparing us to football.

So he asked the question about that, which I thought was good. But yeah, like Betsy said, it's always hard when they ask you these questions right after you've run. Especially if you're coming in as Betsy was as a high seed. And so she didn't have much time to catch the breath, but the, the questions I thought were good. I did not have any awareness of his size either.

I guess, you know, you're in the moment. You're like, holy crap. I just won. You're not thinking about the size Rio didn't seem to be affected at all. So I was fine with it. I was fine with the questions. I was fine with his knowledge. I would be fine if he was back as a interviewer at the end of the run for future events,

I thought his questions were completely fine. I honestly do not remember what they were so excited in that moment. And I know a little bit in that moment. I know he definitely did ask me something about Kaboom winning a second time. So like you said, he definitely knew the backstory to most of it. He actually seemed as though he was more interested than I than the other interviewers.

We've had other events, whether it's Westminster or other NACS, he actually seemed like he, he thought this was kind of cool, which I like. And I think that probably portrayed better on TV, but I have no idea whether he was big or small in all honesty. Yeah. Maybe it was just an optical illusion. I was like, oh,

this is a big dude. Yeah. We'll find out I'm going to look them up. And then I'm going to message all of you, his exact height and weight. Okay. I don't know where you're going to get that information, but okay. It's out there. It's the internet. That's true. All right. So I think in wrapping up this podcast,

we should take a minute to congratulate all of the winners. Honestly, anybody who attended the nationals, I am personally excited for you and your weekend. I think it's a, it's a fantastic trial and everybody has their own levels of success. I love watching all of the posts on Facebook, people talking about how they could not be happier with their dog.

You know, they, they were hoping for one clean run and they got to, you know, things like that. I think that's a fantastic attitude. I think just being at the event is an accomplishment. Let's start with our preferred dogs and we'll talk through the winners here before we wrap up. Alright. So in the four-inch preferred class, the winner was Andrea Samuels' with Pappy on fortune in the eight-inch class was Amy Sheffield with miniature American shepherd pixel in the 16 inch class was Brenda Kelly with Collie deja VU in the 16 inch class Perry Dewitt with border Collie verb and in the 20 inch preferred class,

Jeanie Burton with border Collie river. So those are your new preferred national agility champion dogs. Congratulations to everybody. And then in the regular class, we start off with our very own on the podcast and sponsored athlete, Betsy Lynch with Pepe on Lark, Jennifer crank in the 12 inch class with Rio Sheltie Sheltie Rio in the 16 inch class was Tawny millet with border Collie,

little sparkle in the 20th class, just cause you with border Collie, hallelujah. In the 24 inch class. Of course we have I ever McCune with Kaboom, a border Collie and in the 24 C class a we have Cynthia Horner with truant, a border Collie. So congratulations to all of our new preferred and regular national Jodie champions. I want to just jump in and say,

in my opinion, as a viewer on the stream, the run of the finals was had by Jessica and hallelujah. Unbelievable. I believe they were the only Dar to go under 32 seconds. Just a phenomenal time, just ran it brilliantly, really great run. I saw several of her runs and, and that was not her only brilliant run of the weekend.

She really rocked it at this nationals with just some, some other worldly times on these courses. So congratulations. Well, before we wrap up, I do want to let people know where they can find you. I know that Betsy is a fantastic competitor. We're so excited to have her as a sponsored athlete. She does not teach. So please do not go beg Betsy to teach you agility.

She is a fantastic competitor. Jennifer, of course can be found@baddogagility.com. You can email us at team at bad dog, agility.com. If you have any questions for Jen, Amber, you mentioned that you do run a facility, you do do this for a living. Can you tell us a little bit more as we close up about how people can find you and what kind of instruction you offer?

Well, my mother and I own American canine country in Amherst, New Hampshire, and we can easily be found on the web@wwwdotamericancaninecountry.com. Perfect. I will put a link to that in the show notes so people can easily find you. And thanks again, everybody for joining us today. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you. And that's it for this week's podcast.

We'd like to thank our sponsor HitItBoard dot com. Happy training. Thank you for listening to bad dog agility. We hope you enjoy today's episode for more information, updates and links to all our socials. Just check out our website, www dot bad dog, agility.com. If you haven't already signed up for our email subscription, we would love to have you join the BDA community until next time take care.