Episode 318: Should You Teach an Old Dog New Tricks?

(gentle melodic music) - Welcome to Bad Dog Agility. (dog barking) A podcast helping you reach all of your dog agility goals. Whether it's competing under the bright lights of the televised finals at Westminster or successfully navigating a homemade course in your own backyard, we'll bring you training tips, interviews, and news about the great sport of dog agility. Are you ready? - I'm ready. - I'm ready. - I'm

ready. - The show starts with your hosts, Jennifer, Esteban, and Sarah. (upbeat music) - I'm Jennifer. - I'm Esteban. - And I'm Sarah, and this is episode 318. Today's podcast is brought to you by HitItBoard.com and the new Teeter "Teach It!", an easy-to-use tool that controls the amount of tip on your teeter so you can introduce motion to your dog in a gradual way. Go to HitItBoard.com for

the new Teeter "Teach It!" and other training tools and toys. Use discount code BDA10 to get 10% off your order. That's HitItBoard.com. - Can an old dog learn new tricks, or is it simply it is what it is? So today I wanna discuss kind of how and or when to decide to keep working on a training skill versus deciding you've got what you've got, and you've gotta learn

how to handle accordingly. So this podcast idea came to me from a scenario that I'm now going to build for you guys. All right, so Sarah, you are in class. You have a two-year-old dog. Like you're up and coming, it's a competition class, gearing up for master's level, you guys are a young team. Not your first dog though. All right? Esteban, you're in the same class. Your dog

is 9.5, 9, 8.5, 9, somewhere in there. You've got a couple mocks, also not your first dog. And you're much more into the timeline of things, right? You've got an older dog. Maybe they're preferred, maybe they're not. That's sort of irrelevant for the scenario. But you're in the same class. So this is a real-life scenario that happened to me where we were working on a skill in class.

It happened to be a distance component, so we were trying to have the dog weave while layering the dogwalk. And you're going out there, you're asking your dog to do it, and they don't. They go into the weave poles, and they pop out at pole four or five. And you're in class, and you're with the instructor. What are you gonna do when they fail? Are you gonna say,

"All right, let's work on this. How can we break this down? What can I do to help the dog"? You look to the instructor, you ask the instructor. Maybe the instructor prompts some ideas to help you. Or are you gonna simply say, "You know what, we don't have that skill. We're not gonna have that skill. I'm not gonna do the layer. I'm just gonna go in. I'm just

gonna go in with the dog, and I'm gonna learn how to handle differently." So maybe the non-layer causes more handling. You have to do like a front or a blind and you have to run around the dogwalk, work a little harder, but it doesn't require the distance. So Sarah, for you and your two, two and a half year old dog, what's gonna be your answer? - Well, I

think with a two and a half year old dog, I mean, I kind of feel two different ways 'cause on the one hand, the less experienced the dog, the more difficult that skill might be. And so I might need to put more into building that skill than what I could do in the moment in that situation. But I would definitely take homework and I would definitely say this

is a skill that I would like to have in my repertoire as a handler of a dog that has a whole career ahead of it. - Okay, and if the instructor was willing to help you kind of in the moment, like maybe the solution was they toss a toy 'cause you're gonna be on the other side of the dogwalk to help or throw wires on, you'd be open

to that and know that you might need to go home. All right, Esteban, what about you with your eight and a half, nine year old dog? Don't have the skill, you gonna work through it or are you gonna go, "Eh, I got what I got?" - Yeah, I like how you gave us each the ages so we know the ages of the dog so you have some sense

of their experience, and then you also have the handler, right? So that's the other difference. It'll be whatever difference between me and Sarah, but also whatever difference between me and Sarah and other handlers. So for myself, pretty mobile, got an old dog, I am definitely not going to work through it if I have multiple championships at this point, just not gonna work through it, sorry. Definitely not, yeah,

yeah. Definitely not going to work through it. - Well, and you may have to work through something, it just won't be the weaves, right? Maybe you have to work a different handling. Like you have to figure out, "If I don't have that skill, what are my other options?" So you're still potentially working through things. - Sure, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So this came up in class, and

kind of the instructor in me just immediately went to, "Okay, how can we help the dog? How can we help the team?" Like the dog was struggling, the solution in the short term was relatively easy. I thought we just needed to do a little bit with reward placement, kind of handler, instructor. I was teaching going to the end of the weave poles, kind of letting the dog know

that I had treats and reinforcing the end of the weaves kind of back chain until the handler can move off. So I was fully prepared when this dog struggled to like step in and help and like, okay, let's work on this. And the person looked at me and was like, "No, no, we don't have that skill. I'm not worried about it. I'm just gonna do this other handling

option instead." And I like kind of was like surprised, like isn't my job as the instructor to like help work on the skill, improve the skill? And then she's like, "Nah, he's in preferred, he's 10 years old. Like it is what it is, I'm not worried about it." Which brought an entire different component than what I was prepared for because it did actually kind of make her have

to work a little bit more handily, a little more outside the box. She had to figure out, well, how was she going to do it if she didn't do the layer? And it kind of got me thinking about this idea of like, is there an age at which you say it is what it is, I've got got what I've got, and I'm gonna learn to handle around it?

And it comes up all the time with like start lines. Like when somebody comes in for a private or class, is it like, I don't have one, it is what it is and I need to learn how to handle without it or, okay, we need to work on the start line and that's what we're gonna focus on. - That's it, I feel like that's different, right? - But

is it really? - Yeah, I'm fixing that. - Well, I feel like with a start line- - Your dog would have to be retiring in two or three months for me to say don't bother. - I think generally speaking, this question is more like, I don't want it to be super specific to like layering the dogwalk. So it is kind of like, "Okay, what's the deciding factor?" Is

it skill-based, is it age-based, is it goal-based? - Yeah, so let me jump in here. And I think maybe we picked on the two extremes, right? So layering the weave poles is a skill that is not, I would say not commonly needed on the courses that we run, right? So that's one thing. But a start line is used in every single run, in every single class, at every

single trial, at every single level of competition in every organization, right? So it's a skill that is highly valuable if you're able to teach the dog. So I can understand not investing in layering the weaves, right? There was a time, think back just like 10 years. I was like, people started blind crossing. I was like, I'm not gonna learn blind crossing because I don't need to blind cross

ever. But there came the day when you needed to blind cross. And so if, at that time with my nine-year-old dog who didn't need to blind cross to get around these courses, I had introduced myself and the dog to blind crosses, I would've learned about blind crosses, about timing and when to use them and bad times to use them and great times to use them so that when

I started using them with my next dog, my younger dog, I would've benefited from having had that experience, right? So there may be a case that you can make to say, "Hey, if I'm going to layer the weaves someday," or I've got a two-year-old now, so let's say Mia's the nine year old, I also have a two-year-old. Yeah, then maybe working through it is worth it because I'm

about to have to work through it with the two-year-old anyway, so we can add to the handler knowledge, right? So maybe I don't need it for the dog, but when I think of my whole crew, all of my dogs, it would be helpful for me to go ahead and do that, invest that time there. I have the equipment set up, the instructor, the feedback, let me go ahead

and do that. - Yeah, I mean I could see that. I think that as instructors, I think Jen, you kind of alluded to this, where you were like kind of taken aback by the situation. As instructors, like our initial reaction is always going to be to do the best/correct/most advanced/ whatever thing with the dog. It's just a matter of training. And so I think that the kind of

the point here is that you can absolutely make a case for not doing that depending on the situation. Like not everybody has to have every skill, and I think that it kind of comes down to time. So I know we've talked on the podcast, I'll have to dig out which ones, but I know we've talked about how like time is one thing that everybody is limited. Some people

have more of it than others, but for every single person out there, it's limited to 24 hours in a day at the most, right? So everybody has some limit on their time, and so you have to make choices about where you spend that time, and then there's always going to be like a reward factor for the time that you put in. And some things are just worth less

of your time for you and your situation. - Yeah, it's interesting your guys' perspective or at least the perspective of skill, because in trying to decide where I stood on things, I was like, "Okay, is it age-based on the dog? Is it goals-based?" But it never came down to me that it's skill-based, right? Or a skill factor, meaning this skill I would take the time to train, but

that skill I wouldn't take the time to train. And that's kind of where I'm at, it's like, okay, so at what point do we decide, and I know the answer kind of for me, for each of my given dogs, and it's a factor of all of the above, right? It's a factor of their age, it's a factor of their goals. But there are things where I kind of

say it is what it is, right? It is what it is, I'm gonna learn to work with what I have. I know I'm actively running a 10 and a half year old dog, and I will tell you like his dogwalk contact isn't pristine. I'm not gonna film it in and make it in the trailer of a perfect dogwalk class, but it's not gonna likely be a miss. I

know what I have to do and I will learn to manage around it or work around it. But he's 10.5 and in preferred versus the younger dogs a little bit more of, okay, well I wanna work this, but even Rio who is six, right? So relative to age, not really that old. There are some skills that I'm like, all right, this is what it is. When I look

at what she's going to need, I'm gonna have to spend my energy figuring out how to adapt to her weakness, but then I question, is that really the right thing to do? I mean at only six years old as a shelty, she could be running 'till 12 or 13, why not go ahead and work it and train it? - Yeah, I think the skill that comes to mind

as maybe the biggest example for me as an instructor of where you might have some pretty big divergence in your advice to people is the dogs that have a tendency to kind of superslice on backsides versus bending their body a lot, right? So they come right up next to the wing and pop over the jump, and what will often result after that is a bit of a wide

turn. And the answer is the dog has to turn before they ever take off. And for some dogs that's really natural, right? And for other dogs it is not. And there's like, you can virtually not convince them to take more yardage before they take off in order to set up a better approach after. Do you kind of know what I'm talking about? Basically the backside? Like, and so

what people will do is they will put, this maybe will make it more clear, is that the answer a lot of times is to put like a barrel there to force the dog's path and to kind of muscle memory for them to give themselves more space. And sometimes that will help, but a lot of times as soon as you take that away, they go right back to just

barely getting behind the jump and then forcing themselves into a slice. And my answer to people a lot of times is, because it is so dog dependent, some dogs do it and some dogs don't. Some dogs really wrap their bodies. Some dogs jump very, very straight. And so I'm like, okay, our answers here are the dog does it naturally but your dog doesn't. Option number two is you

go up there and you force a little bit of room with your handling, which that's what a V set is. For people who who do V sets, they are basically forcing some space around the handler's body in order to set up a better approach to the jump, and that works but you have to be there, and that means you can't be somewhere else later on. So it might

work for some of them, but it's not gonna work, it's gonna put you behind on the course, right? Or you've got to accept the wide turn, right? And then the only other option you have is to train it so much that you alter what the dog is naturally gonna do. But if the dog is just always slicing like that, the time and effort that you put into this

one skill that maybe only gets you a wide turn 1 out of every 10 courses, maybe you could put all that training time into something else. - Like your contacts and start lines. - Like your contacts and start lines, especially your start lines, which as an instructor we would all say every dog can do a good start line, right? It's not a matter of your dog can't do

it, they physically can't do it, they're not built to do it. Like every dog is built to give you a start line, but not every dog is built to wrap their body in a U around a jump. That was kind of a long version of what I'm trying to say. - As an instructor, a lot of what's going to kind of determine how much effort we put into

fixing it or kind of the time to fix it is how quick it will be. So in this particular scenario, I felt like it was gonna be a pretty quick and pretty simple fix. Like truly just like three or four reps of me standing at the end with a toy or a treat reinforcing the dog as they come through the weave poles. So when she struggled, I was

really quick to just step right in and say, "Hey, let's do some reps, let's work on this." What's funny is you guys mentioned being a bit more adamant about the start line, I have several students who don't have start lines and I look at that as like, oh, that's a really big mountain we have to tackle. If they came in and they said, "I wanna work on a

start line or have a start line," that's gonna be a bigger challenge. So for them, what they come to class wanting to work on is how do I handle the opening of a course without a stay? Which kind of goes back to the whole do I keep getting it or it is what it is and I learned to adapt? And I think in the case of these few

people, it's like, it is what it is, I don't want a start line, I'm not gonna work, I'm not gonna put the effort in. Their challenge is in figuring out how to handle the opening of the course. So kind of as an instructor, does the instructor influence students' opinions or thoughts on whether they fix it or whether it is what it is? If I see a student with

a problem and I just say, "Oh, well, you don't have that skill, so maybe instead of moving lateral in the weave poles, you're gonna have to go down to the end, do a blind cross, and then go ahead and do another cross after that next jump." Or as an instructor do I say, "Okay, you don't have that skill right now, here's some tools and techniques on how you

can improve that." So does the instructor influence this and should the instructor influence this, right? Like is this a lot of power that the instructor has, especially when you're talking about potentially novice A handlers who don't know better, right? You don't know what you don't know if you're on your fourth or fifth dog, you know, okay, I gotta put wires on the weaves, I've gotta work on moving

lateral, making sure to reinforce at the end, and kinda the role that the instructor plays on this same concept. - Yeah, absolutely. So when you come at it from that perspective and in a class situation, like I do think that the majority of people should at least try. Like that's what they're coming to class for. But also like I feel like not everybody knows what their limits are

or how easy something is to train. So it makes me think of something that happened in a class that I was in decades ago, and it was like an intro class, just doing very basic handling like sequences where you might do a front or a rear or a blind, and I was a participant in the class and the instructor said, "Okay, now we're gonna do this part and

we're gonna do a front cross here." And one of the people in the class, again, remember an intro level class said, "Well, I don't think that I can get there for the front." And the instructor said, "Okay, no problem, just do a rear." And I was shocked because I was like, well, how do you know? Like try it, right? If you can't, you can't, but try it. And

I was like, that stuck with me. It was two decades ago, it stuck with me. And when I started instructing, I never let people, like there are times, sure, that we'll try something and I'll say, "Yeah, like right now you don't have the distance to get there to get that front cross in," once they try it, once I see them. And I'll point out what they needed to

do earlier in order to get there to be able to have that handling, or on very rare circumstances, I'll say that, I will acknowledge that the difference in speed between you and your dog, I don't think that you can make this, right? But I am always gonna have people try it first, right? I'm never gonna let somebody get away with just declaring that they can't do it, like

I am never gonna let that slide. - I love your point because it's affirmation of what I ended up doing in class, which is I let them all run it how they wanted to, right? With the dogwalk, we always say like run it like you would at trial, do what you wanna do. And then I'm like, "Okay, now we're gonna rerun the same sequence and I want you

to try the layer." So they got to do both. They got to do what was inside their comfort zone, what they would do at a trial, and then they got pushed a little bit in challenge, because as you said, they weren't gonna know until they did it. And I think many of them were shocked that their dogs did stay in the weave polls and how easy it made

the handling, like the class got into it and everybody was cheering and clapping, so absolutely. If I had just been like, hmm, okay, fine. They didn't get a chance to try to either confirm that their dog did in fact not have the scale or to really prove them, hey, you have more skills than you thought and good for you. - Right. - Yeah, I think it really depends

on the person and your read of the person. It depends on how much control you like to have as an instructor, but I think ultimately it's gotta be about expectations and setting expectations, right? So if you have maybe a competition class where everyone has the understanding, and I would put it in the syllabus and talk about it on the very first day, you're all gonna be pushed outside

of your comfort zone. I'm gonna have you try things that some of you have, frankly, I know don't typically do and rarely try, but I think it's important at this stage in your handling or this dog's career, X, Y, and Z, just to set the expectations. And I think that would go a long way toward what you're doing, as opposed to, let's say you have a class, maybe

you call it a veterans class. Every dog there is like six or older and they all have multiple mocks and they've been to nationals and they're the third, fourth, fifth dogs for these handlers and they're just looking for a place to do exercise. Half of your class is in preferred. They're not looking to do certain things or try certain things with this dog. Maybe some of them are,

but maybe the expectations are a little bit different. So I think it's our job as instructors maybe to kind of set those expectations, feel people out, and let 'em know when they're bumping up against a wall, right? When they're coming up against it and say, "Hey, I know you don't wanna do this and you certainly don't have to do this. Maybe you don't wanna look dumb in front

of everybody, whatever, but I think it's important. I'm here now, it's set up now. You're probably not gonna work on this at home by yourself. Let's just work through this now. Let's see how far we get. I think you're gonna be pleasantly surprised and let's do this." - Yeah, I think when people are working on their own, I think how you spend your time is like, there is

a lot to be said for the return on your time. So there I think people can absolutely make some choices about how high a level that they want to train skills X, Y, and Z. But in a classroom setting, like you said, when it's already there, like more than half of the work has been done for you. The design of the sequence has been done for you. The

setup of the sequence has been done for you. The choosing of the skills that you're going to attempt has been done for you. And so there I think like at least trying makes a lot more sense, and it also kind of, what Jen was saying about like handling in your comfort zone versus being pushed. It reminds me of our prep courses and our small space sequences that we

do where we basically have a sequence, and for the majority of handlers, including all of us instructors, when you go to a course, you only get to run it once, right? So all three of us as instructors, if you hand us a sequence, we're gonna see multiple ways to run it, but we are going to choose one that we like best for ourselves and our dogs, right? We're

gonna choose one, but for practice we're gonna see what are all the possibilities here of good solid handling. Not doing something crazy, like we don't wanna encourage doing crazy things, but what are all the legitimate handling options? And we're gonna work on all of them because you've already got it set up, it makes sense, and you will often be surprised by what your dog can do. You'll also

be surprised at how much better your options B and C get when you practice them on every sequence, right? So if you always have your A plan, B plan, and C plan, but you only ever run A, you're not gonna get very better at B and C. But if every time in practice that you have the opportunity, you run your A and your B and your C, then

your B and your C plans are going to get better and better. And you may even find that your C plan gives you the best time for your dog based on that sequence or whatever. And so that's why I think the small space sequences and the prep courses that we do are so powerful for people because we basically give them a sequence and say, "We want you to

run it this way, this way, and this way." They do it and they get feedback from us, and people are so surprised at what their dogs can do. - As a person running an agility facility with over 30 agility classes, just agility classes a week, this conversation, this discussion really makes me wanna like reevaluate structure, pull the students, what are their expectations, pull the instructors, what are their

expectations, and kind of restructure and group people in a way where they're in classes with those of the similar mindset. I mean, I know that sounds easier said than done, but as you said, Esteban, discuss it in the syllabus, know the goals. I think the hard part there, just thinking out loud, is that what people say they want and what people actually want are different. Everybody's gonna write

yet down, "Yes, I wanna be pushed, I wanna be presented with new concepts and techniques." But then in the reality, you get 'em out there and they're like, "Nah, we don't have that, it's fine. Let's just keep going." So, so it's very interesting from the kind of registration, structural side of the agility classes. So kind of brings the question of like, okay, how do you prevent yourself as

a competitor, as a trainer, not the instructor side, but like how do you prevent yourself from falling victim to just getting into the status quo of it is what it is versus continuing to build and challenge your skills, right? Is it up to the instructor, is it up to you? Do you do online learning? Do you take classes from different instructors at different facilities? Do you supplement with

private lessons? I mean, what do you guys see as the best way to kind of make sure if somebody's listening, going, "Yeah, I wanna be the person that's continually challenged, not just eh, is what it is," what thoughts do you have on helping them out? - Well, my first thought, I think the most instructive thing for how you should structure your training is the mistakes that you make.

Like that is step one. What is preventing you from qualifying? What is preventing you from getting through the course? What skills are preventing you or what handling is preventing you? What is preventing you from, if you desire to compete at a higher level than where you are now, where are the gaps? If you wanna go to an event, could you have run last year's courses? And if not,

what were the skills that were missing? Like your mistakes, and sometimes it's not even mistakes, but you'll look at a course, and even if you get it right, I know that there are times that I'll look at a course and there will be something that makes me uneasy. You have to listen to that uneasy feeling because sometimes you go out and you run and you get it. But

that uneasy feeling tells you that you didn't have confidence in that skill. And that can be just as bad as not having the skill, 'cause it might prevent you from choosing to use that handling when something big is on the line, and you just have that uneasy feeling and you choose something else that maybe ends up not working out very well, right? So listen to that feeling. -

Yeah, man, I'm having a lot of thoughts because last week we just finally got the golden retriever in our first classes, and so these are our two COVID dogs, right? And then last year, a year ago, we were ready to bring him out into class, and then I promptly blew out my back. I herniated a disc in my back. That was months, most of the year in rehab

before I could like jog, run. And then as soon as I came back, first day out doing sequencing with the golden in the yard, lost the Achilles, did not require surgery, just the tendinosis, couldn't put any weight on it for a couple of days, and then that was a lengthy rehab. That was like three or four months. It was way longer than I expected, and now I'm several

weeks back in, but just started in class. And so I have found that because of my own injury history over the last year and because of the environmental and noise sensitivity that both of our puppies who are no longer puppies have, I find that I'm not pushing them as hard as I would push a dog. I wouldn't even say that I push a dog. I'm just saying that

I take it really easy on these dogs. Like I feel like I really stay away from their borders, their edges. And when you're working with another instructor who doesn't have that history with them or you, they don't know about any of that, they don't know about your ankle or you're old or whatever. They're like, "Hey, do this, do this. I think you can do this, that or the

other." And because you're there in that setting, you are primed as the student to say, "Okay, yes, I'm going to listen to what the instructor says," right? And then I found that we were pleasantly surprised by what the dog was able to do, right? So I think you can benefit from being pushed a little bit. We've all been to many different classes and had many different instructors and

seminars live, in person and online, and I think the best seminars are where you're learning information, certainly. Why we do this, not just, "Hey, do this," because there are some people, instructors, seminar presenters who are just, they're like the people who babysit course night. This is the course, here's some ways to run it. Go ahead, I'm really not learning too much that I'm going to incorporate into my

handling. It's just, you're just there for practice. Someone set up the course, so the why component. But that other thing that you're alluding to, I think, Jen, is the instructor that pushes you in a way that's different than if you were training on your own, training with your spouse is certainly, you never listen to your spouse anymore, right? Unless you're one of marriage, you don't even blank. You're

like, "Ah, what do you know?" So yeah, I think that's a critical role and I think that's a weak spot for me right now at this moment, right? I'm coming up with these dogs now, we're getting ready to debut hopefully sometime in the next couple weeks, closing up the polls, finishing up the contact training, and trying to get them out in a lot of different environments that they

didn't have access to during COVID. I feel like I need to be pushed. I have tried to do it on my own and it is just lazy. Maybe I'm just lazy. So when you ask, "What's the solution?" Is it personal self-study for me, that was not the answer, right? I had to go out there, you put some skin in the game, there are other people watching you, and

the instructor says, "Do this." And you know at home you would be like, "I think she's done, I think I'm done." You do it, and then you're like, "Oh, okay, I think we just grew as a team." Like I grew as this dog's trainer, this dog grew, boundaries are pushed a little bit, and now we're seeing some improvement and now it's like, it's snowballing, right? The improvements are

coming more rapidly and now you've got dogs that are working, and I don't think that would've happened if I was still training here at home. Obviously your mileage is gonna vary. Depends on you, your personality, your access to instruction and all of those things. But for me I found that I needed that. - I think we've asked a lot of questions that each individual team really needs to

evaluate for themself. Maybe presented some things that you haven't thought about, now you gotta kind of think about. Maybe the answer's different for each individual dog. But I think what I would encourage everyone to do is not only think through these questions for themself, but have that conversation with their instructor and maybe let 'em know. And either way, wherever you are across the board, maybe let him know

just, "Hey, just so you know, I'm really open to some ideas. Feel free to challenge me." Or the opposite, "I'm looking at my nine and a half year old dog, he's only coming to the shows because I'm there for my young dog. We're kind of doing something fun in equipment time. I'm really looking to handle with the current skills that I have." But have that open communication with

your instructor, whether that's a class, whether that's a private lesson. And I think about that as both the student but also as the instructor. So that's kind of where I'm at and hopefully gives you guys some different perspective and ideas to think about for yourself. - All right, and that is it for this week's podcast. We did talk about our prep course, and I will say one of

the reasons I mentioned it is 'cause it's on my mind because we're putting it together for AKC Nationals and we'll be sending an email out about that shortly. So if you've been waiting for the AKC Nationals prep course, where we're gonna have sequences based on the trends from the judges for AKC Nationals that we have you do in a variety of ways, not just plan A, then watch

your email for that and watch our Facebook page as well. That's it for this week's podcast, happy training. (upbeat music) - Thank you for listening to Bad Dog Agility. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. For more information, updates, and links to all our socials, just check out our website, www.BadDogAgility.com. If you haven't already signed up for our email subscription, we would love to have you join the BDA

community. Until next time, take care. (upbeat music)