Episode 323: The Past, Present, and Future of AKC ISC

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I'm ready. The show starts with your host, Jennifer Estevan and Sarah. I'm Jennifer. And I'm Estevan. And this is episode 323. Today's podcast is brought to you by HitItBoard dot com and the new Teeter TeachIt, an easy to use tool that controls the amount of tip on your teeter. So you can introduce motion to your dog in a gradual way.

Go to HitItBoard dot com for the new Teeter TeachIt and other training tools and toys. Use discount code BDA 10 to get 10% off your order. That's hit it board.com. Today we're gonna talk about the new I S C classes being offered by the American Kennel Club and we are happy to welcome to the podcast the director of Agility for the AKC, Carrie de Young.

Welcome back to the podcast, Carrie. Thanks. It's been a while, so it was nice to get an invitation back. So as Esteban said, we're gonna talk about i s E today, but let's start with the simplest question. What does I S C stand for? I s E stands for International Sweep Stakes class. Okay. All right. Oh,

you nailed it Jen. I actually didn't know the answer to this. We were talking before the podcast and I thought about it and I said, I don't really know what I think the I is international and C is maybe class or course. And then I was like, I don't know about this. Yeah, I, I thought that was correct just from the like years of doing it in the past.

But in the past, I mean I S C's been around for many years. I remember doing it every December. We had a big cluster up in Cleveland and they would offer I S C and it was very much an exhibition class, you know, is offered every once in a while in certain parts of the area. But now we're seeing like a very different approach.

We're seeing some new rules surrounding I S E and Carrie, that's what we wanted to have you on the podcast to talk about. So tell us exactly what the AKC I S E class is. What purpose does it serve and why we've seen such a change in the last 12 to 18 months with I S C? Yeah, we've had some really exciting changes to it.

You know, as you mentioned, Jen, the I S C class has been around for over 20 years and over the years, initially it was designed trying to get people more interested in, in international courses, specifically more designs that were European F C I orientation. And it just, you know, never really took off except for those handful of shows like the Cleveland IX one that was a world team qualifier show.

So we had approximately those six a year around the country and that's really what it became. It just never kind of really took off as anything. And so we had our six qualifiers a year and off we went. Well, as you mentioned about 18 months ago, a little bit more than that, about two years ago as far as starting the process,

a group of exhibitors came to me and said, you know, we think that we would like to do I S C, but we need to come up with a way that it works for the clubs, that it works for exhibitors. And their push was they have had a chance to run international courses, whether they have traveled internationally and run them or they've just set them up at practice and they're like,

Ooh, this looks like fun. You know, that's the beauty in today's world. We see course maps, we see videos, we see stuff from everywhere. So they really wanted to find a way to incorporate it into the AKC program as a real class that people would consider doing and that clubs would consider offering. And so we had to start thinking outside the box a little bit and we formed a small committee and this group did a great job coming in with some ideas of what they felt would help encourage clubs to try it and certainly the exhibitors to give these courses a try.

One of the aspects is that the courses are largely right now currently designed by F C I judges, which helps us with the authenticity of the style. Of course it is a different style course from AKC and Jen and a little bit I'm sure can speak to it even better than I can as far as some of the style difference. But it's been a great way for people to get to run true I S C courses and for our judges,

AKC judges, not only to judge them but to start to get a feel for what that design is like. So they came to us and said, this is what we would like to do. And you know, we were just coming outta Covid and we're looking around at, well what can we do to kind of, you know, make some changes,

here's a good point to maybe make a turn with our program or just add something to it. And it really made some sense. We had these two classes sitting there languishing that people could have been running yet they really were not being promoted and we didn't have a good way internally to encourage clubs to do it. So you mentioned it's a class that clubs can offer and I'm not super familiar with I S E,

I'm, I'm familiar with it conceptually, but my myself, I've only actually been to two I S C shows and I've never been on the organizing end, but if I'm correct, like certain classes I think like Premier and time to beat, they're optional classes. Clubs can have like a lot of times you'll have time to beat offered Saturday and Fast AF offered Sunday.

Can any club then choose to offer I S C? Is it kind of like an optional or is there a certain process that a club has to go through to be approved to hold I S C? Any club can offer I s C classes. Okay. And there's different ways that they can choose to offer 'em. There's we, when we redid the regulations,

we changed some of the terminology. So for I S C, we now have agility class, which is as our standard class. And we have jumping instead of jumpers with weaves. So clubs can decide if they want to offer, you know, let's say agility one day I S C and jumping the next day I S C, they could run agility and jumping on the same day.

And then just to make it even more interesting, we added levels. So we have level one, level two, level three as you would expect. Level one is the basic novice level and clubs could offer any level they want. Also as an exhibitor you can enter any level you want. You could come to your first I S C class and decide you wanna enter level three.

Also, because this program is a non titling program, you could enter level one and three if they're both being offered that day. So there's a lot of opportunity for exhibitors to really dip their toes in the water and try i s e if it's being offered in the, in their area in the regulations. There are three different ways that clubs can choose to run I S C events.

The third one, number three is a unique one that we added. And that is that a club can offer I S C only as an actual trial. Before the way the regulations were set up, you could offer a day with i s E only, but you were limited to one agility and one jumping run. With the current program, the new regulations,

a club can offer a full trial. So they could offer three agility and three jumping classes in a day. They can mix and match the levels however they want. We have some clubs that have decided that level one jumping is really too simple. I mean it is, it's, it's more like our novice, they don't feel that it gives exhibitors good feel for an I S C style or F C I style course.

So instead they start with jumping at level two, whereas clubs doing agility may decide, you know what, we definitely want agility one and we're gonna do agility three also. So they can mix and match. They could do one and two, they could do two and three, they could do three threes. So it really is up to the clubs how they want to design an I S C only day.

And then certainly if they're offering it tied to the regular AKC show, we do have some limitations on that, trying to keep the days reasonable. And that is also in the regulations. That is super interesting. Yeah, I think the main thing that I was so excited about, about the changes with I S C and I really wanted to like talk about it and make clear to the listeners is the different levels.

Because it used to be like I S C was just, it was just I S C and it was Right. You know, as we talked about like the introduction to international. So Right. A lot of people were incredibly overwhelmed or they would sit there and say, oh well I'm not a world team member, I'm not trying out for the team,

I don't wanna do it. And I love the revamping of these levels. Now I know there's, people are like, oh, it's more classes and more levels, but it allows people to get a feel for it. As you said Carrie, that you thought like maybe a, an a, a level one or jumping one might not be an accurate feel.

I don't disagree with that at all. But it, it's a start, right? It's a step. So having these ability to do a one which stands for agility one A one, A two, A three, or J one, J two, J three, and kind of get at the level that you want makes so much sense. And I think really is gonna promote the program and give people a try.

Like I had a student who started in J three and very quickly was like, oh, that was too much. And so the next trial she did, she backed off and said, okay, I'm gonna do J two. And that was like the sweet spot. And then I've seen trials, one of the trials that I went to, they only offered levels two and three,

so they didn't do the A one J one. And then other trials I saw they only do a one and a two. Like they're trying to get people familiar with it. So this is a big change that I don't think people are familiar with that I think you did a great job explaining, but I really just wanted to make sure people understand that there are now three levels within I S C.

So it used to be, we kind of think of like novice open, excellent masters, premier I S C, but now when you get to I S C, there's a whole level within it. So there's so many options and, and that's what I like about the new setup of the system. Well part of the reason it was set up this way also is because we know we have some exhibitors,

they really would like to start their dogs in I S C early on. That's the experience that they're looking for with their dog. And so by allowing level one, it gives them that place to be able to do that. So we're excited that, you know, that really worked out and it's been embraced by the clubs as you noted that they, you've seen them mixing and matching and a lot of them are doing that based on,

you know, their market. They kind of have a good feel for where people are at within their area. Now what we do find is when it is an I S C weekend and they set up two or three days of I S C people are traveling. And that's something, you know, those of us have been agility no more than a couple of years,

used to travel a lot to agility trials 'cause they just weren't close by. Over the years we've been fortunate and with AKC agility, a lot of times you've got trials nearby, but people travel to the I S C weekends also. So that's been kind of a fun offshoot of it. One of the other pluses, if a club is offering I S C only that day,

they can do f e O in all of those classes. So they can do four exhibition only. So the exhibitor can take in a toy, they can redo obstacles, whatever it is that you know, they would like to do based on the usual AKC F E O regulations. Hmm. Yeah, I was just about to ask that. That is very interesting.

Okay. This is a lot of stuff that I was not familiar with. I don't know if people out there listening know, but I've been out of trialing now basically I think since, since Covid had started. So these are, these are some new things to me. Let me ask a couple of questions, some clarification points. So you're saying like at a trial they could have agility and jumping like every single day,

like on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, they could have all three levels if they wanted agility for and jumping. Yes. But even in, even in a regular trial or you're saying regular trial, there's limitations as to how much you can squeeze in a day. So you might tell them only level one or only level two are only jumping. They can,

They can choose their level. We're not, we're not in control of that. Gotcha. What we are controlling is the number of classes offered per day and that is just to keep somebody from going overboard. You know, it all sounds good on paper until you're there at 11 o'clock at night. Right, right. And of course, you know, our,

our judges and trial committees, you know, you guys are only good for about nine, 10 hours and you know Right. Then people are going to get a little cranky. Exactly. You, you answered my question on the F E O I think that is great and very cool and I think the innovation here, Jen correct me if I'm wrong, but in Europe when you go from levels one,

two to three, you have to kind of work your way up. Right? So then the innovation here in the US would be that you can jump in wherever you want. And so what, what brought that on? Because now that, now that you've said it, I, I'm thinking that's genius and why didn't we think of that before? Well it was kind of some madness.

This committee started down the road. Yeah. But it was done to encourage people to try it. Hmm. And for those that were already obviously competing at that level and they wanted the challenge of the two or the three or were coming over from other organizations where the style of course may be a little bit more similar, that then they were not stuck down in one.

We also know that, you know, this isn't gonna be offered all over the country, but as I mentioned, people are willing to travel when there's an I S C only weekend going on. So trying to find a balance that would work for everyone. And because this is non titling, it left that open to us to be able to go that route.

Also, right now, these classes at levels two and three can count towards the qualifying scores that someone needs to come to the world team tryouts. If you're interested in doing the EO team tryouts, all three levels can count for a different point value. So the classes do count towards that. And we do have clubs that are still doing world team qualifiers where if you're the top scoring in your height,

and of course there's now four heights in I S C with the addition of the 20 inch height, you can still have your buy to the world team tryouts. Okay. And you mentioned that it was non titling and so I'm thinking now I might put my dog in level three for a bunch of shows and then if I wanted to I could do level one.

Sure, Yeah. So no big deal. Nope. That gives, that gives the handler a lot of flexibility. Now I'm thinking about situations where I might be coming back from an injury and you can't often go back to a novice course. Let's say you're running in, you know, masters, it's a rare opportunity, you know, to go back to courses that are maybe a little more straightforward just to start see how your dog is doing.

L let me the other Part go ahead as lemme jump in, if I can just jump in a little bit too. 'cause you hit on a good point there. The other thing with the I S C classes is you can jump your regular AKC height or you can jump your preferred height, but you are scored with the height that your dog would normally measure into like we do at the invitational or the Premier.

Okay. So if you have a dog that is four inch preferred and you decide that you would like to run I S C, then your dog is scored with the, with the eight inch dog. So all of the AKC heights are still available. It's not restricted. There's some misconceptions. Sometimes it's not just restricted to the three F C I heights,

which, or I'm sorry, the four F C I heights now. Right. You know, 12, 16, 20 and 24, which over the years have obviously come much more in line with what we do at the AKC and the US in general. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. I, I do wanna talk a little bit about course design, just, just a little bit.

And you know, there's this whole movement, I don't, I don't know if I should call it a social movement, but there's this movement in dog agility, particularly here in the United States. And specifically with respect to AKC courses, right? There's this thought of sometimes the courses are too crowded, cramped, the spacing between jumps is not good, especially for our larger dogs.

But even all the way down to the, the lower jump heights. And what I'm wondering is E even at the level one for these I S E classes, like what kind of spacing are we looking at? Is this a real priority for this course design and is it gonna be different from say a premier course? Well, it would be, first of all,

it's always dependent on the size of the ring the judge has to design in. So if the judge is working in the bare minimum 8,000 square feet with three poles in it, you're gonna see spacing that tends to look more like what you'd see on an AKC course. The, the maximum they're gonna be able to get in many cases is 21 to 25 feet between obstacles and probably less in a few cases and they would use it.

But when we have sites that have the bigger rings, the rectangle rings that are much more familiar to people in Europe when they're perhaps 80 by 130, 90 by 130, those type of distances. Of course when you've got that length of 130, then you can really start to kind of push things around some more. So typically we see about 25 to 30 feet between obstacles.

And along with that, the maximum in theory with F C I is 240 yards for a course. Okay. Whereas our maximums, depending on the course I one of, you know, we top out at, you know, what is it, 1 95, 200 on something. But their maximum can be 240. And the reality is sometimes they come in more than that and it's just the way that system works.

Interesting. So you can't guarantee necessarily that, you know, the, the shortest spacing between any two obstacles is gonna be a certain amount of feed or yards. But in general you're gonna see a style of course with, with more spacing it's going to kind of mimic what we're seeing in Europe on F C I courses. Well in F C I minimums,

if you actually read the F C I regulations, it does have a minimum for spacing between obstacles and it's pretty much our minimum at 15 feet. Sure. Depending on what it's now not to jump obviously just, you know, again, just like us, their recommended minimum I believe is seven meters. So approximately 21, you know, almost 22 feet.

So we do look at those two when we get the courses from the designers because of course we wanna stay, you know, as true as we can to the F C I regulations. But the interesting thing that people need to be aware of is F C I has a set of design guidelines, just like we do, these very specifically have to be used at the World championship,

the eo, the Junior World Championship. Besides that, then they go out to the different countries. But the countries can also then have their own set of regulations. So if you were to look at Sweden's regulations, they're gonna look a little bit different than FCIs directly. And it all has to do with how they categorize some of their shows too. And I'm not as familiar with what the,

you know, what those categories are, but each country will also have its own regulations that are different or can be different than F C I. So it's not globally once you get to, you know, F C I countries, especially when you're looking at the difference be, you know, between European countries or we look at the South American countries, it may not always be exactly the same.

So one of the things that was mentioned that I'm gonna go back to, 'cause I think it's really important and kind of ties into the answer of your question there, Esan, is that the F C I, I'm sorry, the I S C, so many letters here, the I S C courses that we are seeing run by the American Kenna Club,

the AKC are allowed to now be designed by F C I judges. So you mentioned that, but I think in my experience over the past two years, that is not only just saying, hey you're allowed to have these F C I judges do the courses. We're actually seeing, at least in our area here in the Midwest, almost exclusively the I S C events designed by F C I judges and then judged by an AKC judge.

So the reason I bring that up in terms of course design is I think the many of the F C I judges that are designing have a different style, have a different take and they often do have some of the bigger distances and little bit different lines that lend themself towards Esteban what you were talking about as kind of this like movement towards bigger, bigger stuff.

So it's not necessarily that the rules themself are the only thing that are changing or that we're following the rules, it's that we're now getting an entire kind of crop of judges that we have not been able to show under before that are now designing stuff and they just have a different style. Like I think with a lot of sports you could watch somebody play soccer and you could be like,

did you learn soccer in the states or did you learn it in Europe? 'cause they would have a different style. So I actually just had, we had a show this past weekend in Ohio. It was the first I S C show that I knew about that was an AKC designer doing the courses. So all the I S C shows that I had been to were designed by F C I judges but then judged by an AKC judge.

So that's something that I think is very cool. It's something that I tell people pay attention to. When you read the premium, who's designing because the judge is not necessarily the the designer but kind of from an AKC standpoint, is this, this is like a big adjustment. I mean was this a big push that people wanted? Is this, did it take a lot of hoops for you guys to jump through?

I mean, why was this change made and how is it being received like so far? All good questions. Well as we were looking at the, the courses and we winded grow the program, we realized very quickly and as, and again this great committee that we worked with that while we have very talented course designers, very talented judges, this style is not what they have learned.

It's not what they've run, it's not what they've judged. And so to be able to bring in the F C I judges as designers gives us what people were asking for in the I S C class. They wanted to run the F C I style courses. We do have judges now that as I mentioned, they're are beginning to dip their toes in i s C design and what most of them are doing as you start to see these pop up here and there,

they're working directly with an F C I judge as a reviewer before the course has come into us. So they're not just picking one up and going, Hmm, I think I got it because even as a reviewer from my side, you know, I certainly have a much better feel for the style after having done two and a half years of, you know,

lots of courses now coming through. But at the same time it's still not, you know, not quite the same, you know, sensibility. And for me to be able to coach somebody to design it is certainly not a strength that we have yet. We will get there, I know we will get there and there's some wonderful seminar givers out there that are focusing on course design that I would encourage exhibitors and judges to,

you know, take those, even if you're just auditing, I think there are some really strong course design courses out there from some of the F C I judges. One of the other things you're asking about style differences, Esteban, besides the distances, one of the other challenges we don't see as much are handler restrictions. Whether it is an obstacle. A lot of times the dogwalk could be weave poles that are truly in your way as a handler and you have to decide am I gonna try to race around it or am I,

have I built my distance skills in, I know Jen can certainly speak to that in her in her prep and her training and where being able to layer at a distance is going to help you run the course so much better. So they ask for a different set of skills besides just the distance. Sometimes the distance will scare people away when you start to talk about it.

And there are certainly lines on these courses, I will tell you I look at 'em and go, oh man, you know, maybe 10 years ago, okay, maybe 30 years ago. But, but when I sit there and really take 'em apart, unless it is a straight run line and they do happen just like we see on some of our courses,

when you really slow down and look at it as you are training your dog, if you're starting to get some of that distance work in and trusting your dog out on some of these, they've set up some nice lines for the handler to also run. So you are still running with your dog, you're just not three feet away from them. You might be 25, 30,

but they've set some nice lines for that. Am I explaining that well, Jen, do you think? Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree with that, yes. It's a, it's a balance of a different style, but when you break 'em down, you know, i, I don't want people to be over faced when you break it down and look at it.

There's some skill stuff there. But yeah, I think having the F C I judges be able to design the courses was like the icing on the cake for the I S C program because as somebody who is trying to prepare for international events, it's not I s C that's helping me prepare as much as I S C with judges that I know I'm gonna be showing under when I go to Europe or have a similar flare are or are designing for our trial events or for the events.

So as I'm here now, what, nine days I think from flying out to a wc, these I S C events have given me the opportunity to go run under courses that are mimicking what we're gonna see over there that we didn't have before. And I think the, the real testament to the program and to AKC and all the hard work you've done,

Carrie, is in these 24 months, the huge jump in international success that team U s A has seen, we have had in the last two years at eo at a WC at these events, more results than I think we had right before that, you know, drop off of covid. And it's, I think a huge part of that is that we are going over more prepared,

we're more familiar with the skills, we're more familiar with the courses, we're getting to do things in competitions on a more regular basis with judges that are presenting the challenges. So I think the results speak for themselves. Okay. Enough about my tangent, but anyways, that is my, like you guys are on the right track. I love it. I can't say thank you enough.

Yeah, That's a well Certainly, you know, as we're talking about the, the levels too, you know, if, if you have any concerns about it and but you wanna try it, enter level one if it pops up, I mean what I, what I jokingly say, but I'm telling you, if you go and you pull up level one courses,

most of them are very similar flow to AKC. They might be a little bit more distance between a few things and then the biggest difference is there is a backside in there. One, one nice kind of backside. I mean really when you look at it at the level one levels, it is not beyond our typical dogs and handlers. Okay, well that is very interesting and some really interesting discussion points that I'm definitely gonna talk with all kind of agility people about.

So we, we are now talking about, hey people come out, try this, the people who are doing it are really enjoying it. But a as we know, sometimes people are incentivized, right? And, and I would make the case that people who are interested in I S C are highly incentivized if they're interested in competing abroad. So what about the AKC competitor who,

who really isn't that interested in competing abroad? Sure they could try it, but what I'm wanting to know is, is there going to be any titling in the future? Is there going to be any possibility that these I s C courses will help qualify a team for the big national events that are so prominent here and and on TV and streaming and, and elsewhere T B A Ah,

okay. So all I'm gonna say on that one, obviously we're looking to grow the program and you're right sure, different incentives will inspire different, different people. But we also wanna make sure we don't lose the flavor of I S C and that, you know, people really are doing it because they like that style course, that's what they want to run.

Hmm. Versus oh it's just another check mark so I can get here or there. So trying to find that balance so we don't lose why we wanted to do this and you know, and again, the style and everything that goes with it. But definitely there are plans for I S C to start to take on some other, you know, some other things in the world besides just being a way to qualify into the EO tryouts or into the world team tryouts.

Alright. I also think it's very cool that you have F C I judges designing the courses. So is that a permanent feature of this program or is there a hope that eventually your, I guess regular stable of AKC judges will be able to produce similar types of courses and, and and the F C I judges right now is kind of a, a bridge or a transition to that?

I believe the F C I judges will stay an important part of this program. And it is because as Jen was speaking to, if you're looking at traveling internationally too, to compete, to have the chance to actually run in competition, a course designed by someone you're gonna show under is always a big plus. We all know as we get close to the national championship here for AKC,

people start going, Hey, has anyone run under so-and-so, can you send me some course maps for them? Well, it's the same thing if you're gonna travel internationally to do this, but we are encouraging AKC judges who want to, to work on developing their skills too, because there are AKC judges that are very, very interested in international and it's something that they truly,

you know, have, you know, a like for and they wanna continue down that path to grow as, as designers and judges into this new style class. So we may see a bit more of a mix as we go on, but there is certainly no plan that at some point we'd say, oh no more F C I judges. And we do have clubs that have actually brought over F C I judges to judge their own courses.

Now that's a big financial commitment and the clubs can best speak to how they've done that over the last few years. We had clubs doing it prior to the F C I or the, I'm sorry, the I S C program changing and they would build a weekend around having that judge in town. But I expect it'll be an important, a very important part of the program success going forward.

All right, very nice. So we talked about the different levels, we talked about the judging and the course, but let's get to what people wanna know, the results, the scoring. So how does this scoring work? If it's non titling, how does this scoring work? How do the results, you know, we don't, we don't earn legs and get certificates.

So how does that end of of things work? Well, at the trials, of course there are your typical points off for an knocked bar, a wrong course, a refusal, whatever the case may be. Typically five point faults. And so you've got your score, but then you're going to have 15 faults, 10 faults, whatever it is. There are no cues,

as you mentioned, there's no qualifying. So you can be in the top four placements with faults. So scoring at the trial is, you know, faults and then your time. So if you had a perfect run and you're the fastest dog, you're first, if you had a perfect run and you were smid lower, you're second. If you had 15 faults and you're the next fastest time and there's nobody else that had less than 15 faults,

you're now third. Right? One of the big changes is we've never recorded these at AKC. So if you were running I S C in the past, and especially if you wanted to come to any of the trials, you had to keep your own notes on which scores you got at which show. And then the trial secretaries would email to me A P D F of the results.

I would file away the P D F until it was time for tryouts. And then Steve and I, Tony Anii would work our way through P D F results to make sure everyone had their scores. They were supposed to have a little time consuming. But now as of August 1st, all results are being scored and you can find 'em on your dog's record now at the AKC.

So if you'd wanted to look at your I S C results, it would be just like when you pull down your dog's complete trial record. If you pull down the complete trial record, you will have your I S C runs as of August 1st. To do that, we did implement a $2 recording fee so that we could process it, you know, it's a lot of hands to make all this work.

So there is now a $2 per run recording fee for I S C runs prior to August 1st. Prior to us having this programming, we did not charge the clubs for the runs, but we do now so that we can record them. Also, they do show up under regular trial results. So if you go to the AKC website, you look up,

you know, A B C Kennel Club and the I S C classes, you will find just like you would any of your other scores under your I S C class and your height, you'll find what your results are. So that's something too that is new to the program as far as having access to that information and having access to that information goes back to your question Esteban,

which is, will we be doing something else with the program so it now we have access to that information and exhibitors have access to the information. It gives us a chance to grow the program in some different fund directions. That's great. Here at Bad Dog Agility, we are all about data. You know, I think people know that about us and when you have that data,

you have the information and I think it can really inform where you want to take your organization. I think that's something that the AKC has done really, really well, especially when you compare the AKC to other organizations. Data is good. But thank you so much Carrie, for joining us on this podcast and really breaking it all down. There's a lot of stuff in here that I had no idea was happening.

I really didn't know that this was going on and I think there's some innovation in here that I really, really like. Oh, I do have one more quick question. Remind me again what does I S C stand for? International Sweepstakes class. Okay, so it's International sweepstakes class. So when we say I S C class, we're saying international sweepstakes class,

class. Just like when we say a t M machine, we say Automated teller, machine Machine. I just wanted to point out, you see, I didn't even, I didn't even know what ATT M stood for, so I just learned that I knew I S C, but you've educated me on a t m. There you go. It's the chai tea joke from the most recent Spider-Man movies,

but I just wanted to put that out there all Well, well thank you Carrie for joining us. Right. You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me. And that's it for this week's podcast. We'd like to thank our sponsor, hit aboard.com. Happy training. Thank you for listening to Bad Dog Agility. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. For more information updates and links to all our socials,

just check out our website, www.baddogagility.com. If you haven't already signed up for our email subscription, we would love to have you join the BDA community. Until next time, take care.