February 20, 2024

Episode 334: How Top Trainers Get Their Next Dog

In this episode (30:08)

In this podcast, Jennifer, Sarah, and Esteban explain how top agility handlers get their next dog while giving their own #1 quality they look for in a new dog or puppy.

You Will Learn

  • The importance of understanding precisely what you want in a dog before beginning your search.
  • The value of observing and interacting with a variety of agility dogs that do not belong to you.
  • The significance of repeat breedings and why they matter.
  • Why it’s important to build a good relationship with breeders.
  • When you should start your search.


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Welcome to Bad Dog Agility, a podcast helping you reach all of your dog agility goals. Whether it's competing under the bright lights of the televised finals at Westminster, or successfully navigating a homemade course in your own backyard. We'll bring you training, tips, interviews, and news about the great sport of dog agility. Are you ready? I'm ready. I'm ready.

I'm ready. The show starts with your host, Jennifer Estevan and Sarah. I'm Jennifer. I'm Estevan. And I'm Sarah. And this is episode 334. Today's podcast is brought to you by Magic Mind, your companion for those long trial days. Whether you're an agility trainer or handler, keeping your mental energy and focus sharp is key. Magic mind is crafted with a thoughtful blend of ingredients,

including ceremonial grade matcha for a smooth energy lift, plus ashwagandha and lion's mane mushrooms selected for their history of use in supporting mental clarity and wellbeing. The goal to support your focus and energy naturally without the highs and lows of traditional caffeine sources. Join the community of handlers who have made magic mind a part of their daily routine. Ready to give it a try.

Visit magic mind.com/bad dog and get 20% off your first order with a discount code Bad dog Magic 20. Embrace the day with clarity and energy and let magic mind be a part of your success story. Today's podcast is also brought to you by hit aboard.com and the new Teeter TeachIt, an easy to use tool that controls the amount of tip on your teeter. So you can introduce motion to your dog in a gradual way.

Go to hit aboard.com For the new Teeter TeachIt and other training tools and toys, use discount code BDA 10 to get 10% off your order. That's hit aboard.com. Hey everyone. Today we're gonna talk about how top handlers get their next dog. And this is gonna be mostly targeted at people who are new to their sport, probably on your first dog. And I think that a lot of people in agility have had that experience of doing agility with whatever dog that you happen to have on hand.

And maybe that dog doesn't love agility quite as much as you do. You get bitten by the bug, you want a dog, and it's probably gonna be your first, like truly only for agility or primarily for agility kind of dog, right? And so I think all of us have been there at some point or another. I think most of us have been there,

right? And so I wanted to talk a little bit about that because it's something that we've never really discussed before. And if you're new to the sport, it's, it's something that you start to figure out over a long period of time and talking with a lot of people. So I thought we'd Gitchi guys a little primer. Little shortcut. That's right.

Little shortcut. And so first I want to point out that I am not a breeder. I am not a breeder. You're not a breeder, and we are not breeders for very specific reason. It is hard work and it's a lot of responsibility and to be responsible for the puppies that go out and find them great homes and being responsible for any issues that are gonna pop up with those dogs.

However, we do have someone on the podcast who is a little bit of a breeder, and so we've got Jennifer Crank here and she's gonna share some of her experiences and expertise. But Jen, so someone comes up to you and they say, Hey, you know, my current dog is so and so, I've been doing agility for a year or two.

And you know what? I think I'm ready for a sheie. I want a sheie. And I heard you're, you're breeding or you have a, a litter coming up and, and is there a possibility that I can get one of these? Fantastic. She, you're so awesome. Your dogs are so awesome. I love you. I love you.

Let me get my checkbook. Jen, how does this work? Like, does this person have a shot? Should, should they be coming to you for a dog? So in the case of somebody coming to me specifically for a, she, I only breed shees. So compared to breeders that maybe dabble in different breeds or mixes, I only have shees.

So the first question I'm gonna ask that person, or I might already know it if I know the person is, is this their first sheie or have they had shees before? So that's gonna be a huge question for me, is somebody coming from the world from that breed, they're familiar with the breed, but as you said, maybe now they want one that's more agility bread or performance bread,

you know, before they had a rescue or one that they did not get specifically for the sport, or are they new to she? Because that's very different. And that the questions that you would ask in the road that you would go down for that I think are quite a bit different. So this is gonna be true of anybody out there thinking about a dog.

Are you getting a dog, again, maybe more specific to sport and that's it within the same breed of what you have or are you trying a different breed? Because I think that's something really important to take into account and it's gonna present some different questions in terms of your experience with the traits of that breed. Interesting, interesting. So what I'm hearing is there's really a lot of subjectivity here,

both on the part of a breeder who might be looking to possibly place a, a puppy or a dog with you and on the part of you, the listener, the person out there looking for a dog. So there's a lot of different questions that you kind of need to answer, right? And, and a breeder is going to want to ask you because at the end of the day,

Jen, like ideally, and then I guess maybe practically if the answers are different for each of those, ideally versus practically, what kind of person or home are you looking for for your, for your puppies? The main thing that I am looking for and the question that I ask a lot of my students. So my students don't typically want shelties from me,

but they might ask me, you know, Hey, would you have some suggestions on breeds? The thing that I tell people, and I've said it it on these podcasts before, I don't know where, but I know I've said it, I'm very, you know, upfront, I've talked about this a lot, is if something prevented you from being able to pursue agility while this dog was young,

are you still okay having this breed? Are you okay having this dog? Is that an okay match for your household, for your heart, for your brain? Or is this a dog that you're getting quote unquote for agility, right? So my she line does tend to be more performance bread, more agility bread. And therefore I get a lot of people that come to me wanting,

I want an agility. She, I want one really fast and I want structure and athleticism. And I do have people who will come to me that don't have, she and I and I always say, do you want this? She, because you want a dog that you can go put on a world team or do you want this? She, because you think a,

she's a good match for you. If on your way home, if if driving home from picking up this puppy or the puppy is six months or eight months, something happens, that means you can't do agility, right? Are you still okay having this dog? And I think that's something that I've really taken to heart myself as well as far as getting dogs that I know,

even if they could, I mean frankly, even they couldn't do agility, some medical issue or something, they couldn't agility. I'm still going to be okay with that. And if I couldn't do agility, I'm still picking a dog that makes sense for me. Not just a quick means to an end of, oh, they're fast, oh, they're athletic,

oh they come from a good line of, of high results. I think it'd be a really bad match, but this will be my key to agility success. Make sure it's something. So, so as a breeder, my number one priority is a good home, not performance, not results on the scoreboard or in the titles. It's a good home.

It's somebody that is going to, you know, care for them and love them regardless of their performance and the care that they take. I would rather see a dog not doing agility or not working on agility, but the person loves them and spoils them and gives them all the care, the chiropractic, the vets, all this stuff than somebody who is super competitive and therefore lives in almost a state of disappointment.

Well, the dog grew too big and now they're unhappy because their dog's too big or the dog wasn't fast enough, or the dog this or that. And then as the breeder, I have to sit there and question, are they happy with this dog? Is this dog everything they ever wanted? And that's not what you want. So I always think about that in terms of breed as well.

You know, is this a breed that you would want even if you couldn't do agility? 'cause I do see a lot of people who, especially on their second, third or fourth dog, they're in agility and they want that dog and they get, I'll be stereotypical, I'm Border Collie because they're fast and they're smart, and they, they know the verbals and then it's like,

great, okay, that one hour a day when they're in class, it's fine. But the other 23 hours of a day the dog's, you know, not doing well. I mean, I think, and I'll, I'll kick it back over to you. That's a pretty common misconception with Mals, right? Like right, oh right, the great on agility,

but what about the rest of the time? So I mean, is that that, is that something that, that you guys feel had had to be taken into account with your puppy? Oh, I think that's absolutely true. First of all, we definitely did do the border Collie thing, right? Yeah. So at some point we got the border col.

I think a lot of people who know us and that see us compete here in Texas and things know that we have run many different breeds over the years. Raw wilders, Australian Shepherds, golden retrievers, border Colies. Now the Mao, what is that? We got a poodle, what is that? Five or six different breeds right there. So, you know,

we, we like to, we like to spread the love around amongst our breeds. We certainly do have our favorites, but I think what you're getting at is before you even can begin to answer the question how top how, how do top handlers, you know, get their next dog? The answer starts with they know what they're looking for, right?

They know what they want, they are familiar with the breed. If they're switching breeds or they're very familiar with the breed and they know I'm gonna move from say, confirmation line golden, who are gonna be golden retriever's, gonna be a little bigger boned, maybe a little bit slower in terms of yard per second, maybe a little fearful of the teeter.

And they're gonna move to perhaps field lines a little bit lighter bone, a little bit faster, a little bit more athletic. You're, you're gonna find that they really have a good vision of, of what that dog is gonna look like in their household, in their pack. You know, for, for colleges, we went through this with Isaac picking out colleges,

it's called the Broken Leg Test because I, Isaac was also an athlete, right? He went to college and, and he made his choice not based on athletics. Because what everyone will tell you is imagine that during your, your freshman year, the summer before you go to college, you, you break your leg and you're forced to retire from your sport forever.

You can't do that sport. Now, do you still want to go to that college? Right? And, and the the point there is that you don't pick a college based on the sport that you're playing. This is for the vast majority of students. Probably doesn't apply to every single student ever who went to college, but it's an excellent rule of thumb.

And so I think that's what Jen is getting at here to really understand that, again, this is just like any other dog. It's a commitment to being with this dog, 10 to 15 and plus years, hopefully, you know and beyond as a member of your family. Yeah. And, and you know, you kind of brought up our, our Malinois and longtime listeners will know that Esteban's been talking about a Malinois for probably a decade.

And there's a reason that we only just got one into our home. And it was because of, you know, having, you know, young kids and having the time and, and to, to give that dog what it needs. And we felt like now is the time that, you know, our kids are grown, they can handle like a very large powerful dog in the house.

And, and that's one of the reasons we waited, but it kind of speaks to your point of is this a good fit for your situation, for your home, for your other family members and all of that, Right? Okay. So now we've decided we're definitely gonna get another dog, we're gonna get them for agility. We have familiarity with the breed that we're looking at,

and now we kind of wanna know, well, how did the, how do the top folks think? And I'll, I'll start with us, or I guess I'll start with me very specifically. So the first thing that I do is not go out on the internet and look for litters of those, of those breeds. So Right. I'm going to work backwards.

I know what I'm looking for you and I'm looking for an agility dog. Okay? And, and, and if you're looking for an agility dog, you, you should probably be looking at a lot of different agility dogs because it turns out that similar to humans, progeny, offspring often will strikingly resemble their parents in mannerisms, intelligence, behavior, athletic ability.

And Chile. Now, you know, Sarah's five six, I can't marry a taller person to get Isaac that height that he wanted to help power him through a division one water polo. But, but it's, it's not too late for you. And what I'm saying is if you go out there and you see a dog that you really like, there are some questions that you can ask.

One, is this dog a a sire dam? Are they going to have a litter? Are they gonna sire a litter? Right? Number two, and probably what I consider the, the sneaky better way of getting a dog, if this dog is so awesome and they have some litter mates that are so awesome, I don't want puppies from that awesome dog or the litter mates.

The first I'm gonna try and see if there's a repeat breeding. So I'm gonna go look at those parents and I'm gonna go look at those lines and I'm gonna see where those lines are existing in which kennels. Right? So I think some people get attached really to the different kennel names. Oh, this is a famous kennel. This kennel produced 25 mock dogs.

This one produced this many confirmation champions. I don't really care about that. I really care about the lines and where they're getting these dogs, right? And so I'm gonna look very closely at the parents, aunts, uncles, all that kind of thing. But mostly I'm gonna be hyper-focused on the parents. And so I'm gonna work my way backwards. I'm gonna look at the kind of athleticism,

speed turning ability that I want in the ring for whatever breed I'm looking at. And then I'm gonna find out where that dog is from and that then I gotta go to where the lines are. Jen, what do you think about this as a, as a strategy? Definitely the repeat breeding is like a huge, huge thing. If that's an option,

I'm a big fan of, you know, you already know what that parent did, right? You exactly what the mother father produced. Now as a person who has done the same breeding four times, know that you get different stuff, right? But there is there, there's a known there, there's somewhat of a known, I mean, yes, every breeding is different,

but I really am a big fan of the repeat breeding when possible. But yes, it's about finding lineage that you like an aunt, a cousin, you know, two sisters that have puppies. I mean, this is how a lot of people find me as a breeder. They saw a sheti, it was one they really liked. They went up and said,

Hey, where's that dog from? Okay. You know, they, they send me an email and say, Hey, I met so and so, I really like this dog. So it gives me feedback because now I have an idea of what that person is looking for. Oh, you liked that dog? Okay, you like that style? Or in the case of she's,

we have such a factor with like color as well, color and sex as well, or you like, you know, that size as well. And she's, it's a very unique thing because it's not just the dog. There's so much to, to their looks and their appearance that become factors with size and color and sex and all that. A little bit different than some breeds where it's just,

they're all the same size and color. You just gotta pick whether you like boys or girls. Right. But I definitely think there's certain breeds I'm like, you just gotta decide which, which one you want. Yeah. But definitely looking into a line I think is really, really important and, and really helpful. Right. Kind of does some of the work for you instead of just waking up and saying,

okay, I really want a Bernie Mountain dog. Maybe I saw a birdies mountain dog that I really liked. And I can go to them and I can say like, okay, where's it? And, and sometimes they're from lines that are breeding for sport or performance or good work ethic or great structure. And other times it's a one off like, oh,

this dog's from, you know, field work and it's doing really great at agility or, you know, whatever. But that's how you start. It's how you begin your research, right? Right. It's a good way to get started. Now there's many other factors and I think, and maybe this is on your list, but looking at breeder as well and,

and one that you think you can have a good relationship with. So I'm not just talking like the breeder in terms of like how famous they are, their ethics, but just like, is it someone that you can have a 15 year relationship with because that's how long your dog might live. So I think, you know, finding the line, as you said,

it's not always all from a like famous kennel, but looking into ancestry and what traits you like as a, like, it, it, it's the, it's the place to get started. That's always what I tell my students if they're like, oh, I saw that, you know, Walker at a trial. I really like that. What do you think?

Well find, go, go talk to 'em, find out where that's from, see if it has siblings to agility, start following them on Facebook, you know, and kind of building your family tree. Right? Right. Totally agree. I've even run into the situation where I will trace someone, some, some lineage back to a particular dog or group of dogs and inquire about a specific breeding and they say,

you know, hey, that breeding is all spoken for, or, you know, it didn't take, it's not gonna happen for two years, but I have this other breeding that is gonna be absolutely great at agility. And I'm like, you know that, that's nice, but no. Yeah. Like that's not, that's not why I'm here. And that's not how I ended up here.

But there have been times where other people, you know, they do look at that, you know, 'cause they like the breeder, they have the relationship, they start exploring some of the other dogs they have. And if you can develop a relationship with the breeder where you can trust them, they know what they are talking about. Right? They,

and, and, and for our sport, I find it very helpful when they send dogs to agility, they don't necessarily have to be agility competitors themselves. They don't need to be high level competitors. If they are competitors, you know, I've certainly seen, like, I want, I want to say like border C people, the, some of them know their lines very well and they're like,

you know, yeah, some of our dogs, they don't go to hurting homes. They go, they go to agility homes and then they're doing very well. I think even here you have to be careful in general, breeders have very high opinions of both themselves and their dogs and their breeding programs. Of course. Right? And so, especially for some people who are not in the sport,

and I don't wanna single out border colly people, but that's who I'm singling out right now. Those breeders will often tell you things like, oh, well the dog can herd, they can do anything, you know, walk on water, you know, herd ducks, humans, they can drive your kids to school. It's not true. Okay. I tried.

They cannot drive at all. Jen. I, I think this is why I've grown over the years of not being a huge fan of puppy deposits. Mm. Unless it's for a specific breeding. So my first exposure to putting a deposit down on a puppy was from the kennel, but not that particular breeding. So I wanted this particular cross. I knew that mother and that father,

and they're like, okay, gimme your deposit. Okay, well what if the the puppy doesn't get pregnant? Well then we'll just transfer your deposit to the next litter. And I was like, but no, I don't want, I don't want that next litter. I don't know that that next litter is gonna bring the traits that I want. And you know,

there are a lot of breed that, oh, all our dogs are great at agility. I'm like, but are they like, yeah, like, I mean, we just did those podcasts on ETO recently. And so it's like, have they seen a job? Have they ever seen a job? Have you asked them to do the stairs? Can they get in the car?

So my first exposure to puppy deposits was a very negative one in which you didn't get the deposit back and they just transferred it to the next one. Now I know that's not how everybody works, and I don't wanna make puppy deposit seem like a bad thing, but exactly to your point. It's, it's a particular cross. It's a particular lineage. It's dogs that you've vetted,

you've researched, you've looked at not just any, you know, any puppy from that kennel name. I'm not, I'm not buying the kennel name. I'm buying that particular cross. And yes, I want the breeder to have knowledge and they do know their dogs, but I a hundred percent agree with sometimes people being very confident in what they can produce and not necessarily the,

the facts to back it up. Often what I refer to as kennel blind, you know, you can't see your own kennel because your kennel, oh, my kennel has great X, y, z and they can't take a look at it from the outside coming in. Right? Sarah will tell you that I have lost thousands, couple of thousands of dollars in puppy deposits over the years on various litters that just didn't seem to pan out or apparently,

you know, I was the next one to get a puppy, but there just wasn't quite enough puppies for that to, to happen. And I think one thing that I, i I will say is that I do note that, and, and this is something I think newbies need, need to be aware of, like the way that puppies are passed out from litters and,

and match with their owners very widely from breeder to breeder, right? And yes, there are absolutely breeders who are just gonna like, give the best puppies to their, their friends or to themselves, or they may owe to whoever owns the sire of one of the puppy picks, like first female, first male, things like that. Or the Most successful handler.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think there is an element of gamesmanship and luck to finding the right breeding and having a good relationship with that breeder. So those are some things you might wanna do. I was never really interested in doing those things. I just wanted to like get the dog that I wanted and then kind of be left alone.

But that, that's more my approach. And I was much less willing to play those kinds of games. But I just want people to be aware that that kind of stuff is out there a little bit. You know, I will also say as a breeder, one last little thing, establish a relationship. Don't wait till the last minute. Don't be like,

Hey, I'm looking for a puppy and I'd like to pick it up in 48 hours. You got anything available? That's not gonna happen. Establish a relationship. Hey, I've been following your dogs, I wanna reach out. I'm not looking now, but you know, here's a little bit about me. Hopefully we can keep in touch, build the relationship.

I know for me, that's gonna go a long way on getting to know somebody, them being able to know your dogs, you knowing what they want and planning in advance. You know, litters don't happen overnight. They take a lot of time and testing and raising and planning and, you know, the sooner you start looking at things, I think the the better off you are on establishing those relationships.

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. That was gonna be my advice too, from, from the other side, not from the, from the breeding side, but, you know, start early, you know, well before you're, you are ready to get it. Start thinking about what, what breed you want. Use the advice that we gave earlier to find the lines that you want.

Reach out to breeders and let them know that you're not looking right now. Let them know what your timeframe is. But what you're gonna do is they're gonna get to know what it is that you want and they're going to keep you in mind. So, so that when they do have, especially if you are relatively new and you don't know everything about everything,

you don't know all of these lines, like Jen has so much knowledge about she lines, right? She's gonna be like, I want that breeding. Right? But if you don't have that kind of knowledge about your breed, like all the way down to the very specific lines that you want or the lines that you want to avoid or whatever because you're more new to the sport,

but you know what you're looking for in terms of performance, livability, the trade off between those two things, where on the spectrum you want your dog, then you can get to know the breeder, let them get to know what your goals are, what you're looking for, and they're gonna keep that in mind as they put breedings together. And they may,

you know, and then hope. The hope is they reach out to you and they say, Hey, I've got two litters coming up. I don't think this one is right for you, but I think this one is right for you if you would like to put a deposit or here's the timeframe for this litter. Or even sometimes litters will happen where there's a huge mismatch between what everybody wants and what is born,

right? So I think this happens a lot ar around sex. So you know, a litter with six males and three females and the majority of people on the list wanted a female. And now you have, especially For the bigger dogs, Especially for bigger dogs, right? Like Mals, like mals and, and so you end up with this fantastic breeding,

but just, just luck of the draw. There happened to be these additional male dogs sitting around. And then if you've been talking to the breeder, they may reach out to you and then that may be really how you get exactly what you're looking for is by being flexible in your timing. Yeah. Super interesting. I'm gonna close with the, the final thought here.

I'm gonna ask each of us what you're looking for, like the number one quality in an agility dog. And I, I, I do wanna warn, I do want to warn the, the new folks that when you're out there, you can do everything right. I, I kind of feel like we did that with the research, the homework with the golden and the poodle,

and then I've got, you know, two dogs with like issues that are preventing them from, you know, competing in the ring. Right now they're already four years old, so you know, you can do everything right, but sometimes things can go a little bit wrong, right? And so that's where it's important to have a dog that you can live with,

right? And so these two dogs are really great for our family, for our daughter, and in our house. But I'll say the number one thing that I look for is jumping and jumping ability. So I will not compromise on this if, if there is a history of early jumping in the lines, I tend to shy away from those lines. I wanna see the parents jumping.

It's not good enough for me. If I were looking for a border calling and they're like, oh, well we got a herding dad, and the mom does a little bit of agility, right? I want to see these dogs jumping, like, I'm not gonna take that chance. There was a time when, you know, hurting people could say all kinds of nonsense about how amazing herding dogs were.

And I'm like, no, I need to see that dog jumping. Okay. Because that is something that to date we have not had as trainers all like training trainers, like all trainers in the world. It's really a hard behavior to fix, to fix or change or, or really teach in a dog. Okay, Sarah, you're next. All right.

I will say that for me, and I know it's just supposed to be one thing, but I'm gonna say that I, one thing my, no, my one thing is a combo and that is that I'm looking, okay, my one thing is sweet spot. I'm looking for the sweet spot. I know it's cheating. It is a little bit cheating,

but what I'm saying is I know that it, you're, you're not typically going to get a dog that is perfect at everything perfect, at everything in life, right? Okay. And I'm looking for the sweet spot between speed and trainability and livability. So I will, what I'm saying is I would rather have a dog that's like a More moderate Dog,

like a more moderate dog, okay? I'll Give you that, right? I, I feel like that's a fair Quality, right? Like, I am willing to not always win as long as the dog that I go home with is livable. Now, I don't wanna always lose, I wanna sometimes win. You know, like I don't want the,

I don't, I don't want slow and livable. I want fast and livable, but I don't have to have the absolute dog that nobody can beat. Gotcha. And Jen, Alright, you're gonna say I'm cheating too, Esteban, because my, my one thing is don't underestimate what your heart tells you, even if your head is telling you something different.

Ooh, see, I know that's kind of cheating, but I think a lot of people go with, you know what their head says, their head says, take the puppy with the best structure, the puppy with the best structure. Always take the puppy with the best structure. Ah, but what if that's not the puppy that you have the connection with?

What if there's just something about one of the dogs or your instructor said this breeding, this breeding is gonna be the best breeding. You gotta get a puppy from this breeding And you, you go to look at the puppies, you see photos, you see videos, and you're not feeling it. If the heart is not wanting it, don't take it just because your head said you did.

And vice versa. If your head is saying this, I mean I will give up a little bit on structure if the heart is really pulling at something. So I'm not saying don't listen to your head. I'm just saying don't forget what the heart is telling you and find that compromise as a person who has purchased dogs 100% with their head and purchased dogs 100% with their heart.

There is, there is the compromise, and I think it goes back to, I've never heard it before, but the broken leg test, I love it. I love that, that if you buy a dog 100% with your brain because somebody said it's the best dog, but then it doesn't turn out to be the agility dog or something happens and your heart's not in it and you just don't get the warm and fuzzies that's gonna be straining on the relationship.

So listen to your heart. Alright, well that is some great advice for our listeners out there and I hope that you find this helpful. That's it for this week's podcast. We'd like to thank our sponsors, magic Mind and HitItBoard dot com. Happy training. Thank you for listening to Bad Dog Agility. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. For more information updates and links to all our socials,

just check out our website, www.baddogagility.com. If you haven't already signed up for our email subscription, we would love to have you join the BDA community. Until next time, take care. What did zero say to eight? Nice Belt.


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