Episode 348: The Fine Line Between Wanting and Needing

Sarah: Today's podcast was inspired by a clip from the most recent Olympics, the 2024 Summer Olympics, and many of you have probably seen this clip. It made its way around Facebook, but I'm going to go ahead and play a clip from the bronze medalist from Australia in the Women's 20K race walk. Her name is Jemima Montag and she had this to say.

Jemima Montag: But it's a careful balance of wanting that medal but not needing it. It's really a nuanced difference. So not needing it for your own self-worth or feeling that people love you, but wanting it saying, "Yeah, I'm willing to give this a crack and be tough. And if it doesn't happen, the sun will rise tomorrow, but let's give it a go."

Sarah: And I wanted to play that back for you guys because I think that this is a really powerful statement that she's made and a really important thing to think about when we're competing at anything because there are a lot of emotions that are involved in competing and agility is no different. We have these same thoughts and feelings about agility.

Esteban: We talk about it all the time, or I talk about it all the time, at least that I feel very much that for the vast majority of competitors, the dog agility is indeed a sport. And so I think even when you're not competing at, say, the very, very highest levels of your sport when you are competing in sport, you sometimes loose the clear vision of why you're doing what you're doing. And I think that happens a lot to Olympians specifically. I think people who follow sports closely or who follow the Olympics, at least now that I'm older, I've gone back and looked at some of the Olympic heroes of my youth. And a lot of them are doing a lot of great things.

But there are some of them that have these really tragic stories where they seem to have run into issues oftentimes related to a sense of loss of self, that without the goal, without the carat of an Olympic medal, that they're not quite sure who they are and what they should be doing. And so they're chasing this thing, they're chasing this thing. And while they're chasing this thing, that becomes their purpose, their reason for getting up in the morning, for sacrificing what they do, for putting their bodies and minds through what they go through.

And whether or not they achieve it either way, because this happens to multi-time, gold medalists as often as it does to the people who don't quite make the cut, who don't quite medal. They really seem to lose that drive. And then what happens is there's a collapse of self-esteem and a loss of a sense of who they are, why they did it, and this dramatic conclusion, which is what do I do now? And a real sense of loss.

Sarah: Right. And I think one thing that's really interesting to me in agility, and when I think about these kind of pressures that we face in the sport, I think that it can kind of sneak up on people sometimes because I don't think that people get into agility with a super sports mentality or even having a background in the mental management side of sport. They get into it because they love their dog. And then suddenly they're faced with all of the same pressures that one might face competing in the high school championship, the state championship, competing in the Olympics, competing on the world stage. They're faced with all of these pressures that they weren't expecting and they don't necessarily know how to deal with it.

Esteban: So I don't think it's just about pressure. It's also about the rewards, kind of the reward system, right? Because we start very small. You get ribbons and then you get bigger ribbons, and then you get championship ribbons, and then you get titles, and then you get national championship distinctions, and then you get to compete at international competitions and they give you these uniforms that make you feel more exclusive and it goes on and on and on.

And I think what happens is there's a transition and the transition is between, as Jemima said, wanting something and then suddenly it's transformed into needing it, right? And you need it because of all the validation you're getting, all that positive feedback you're getting from people saying, "Oh, you and your dog are so amazing." And then I think it changes. It changes your mentality. And I think that's where you can potentially start running into problems. Jenn, what do you think?

Jenn: I think anytime you're dedicating a certain amount of time or effort into something, there is some level of expectations of what you want out of it. So the more hours you're logging into training, the greater the want is. The greater the need, the greater the expectations. If you are literally just going to a one-hour class once a week and that's it. True, true hobbyists never have done a show. I don't know that there's as great of expectations.

But I look at that in all aspects. If it takes me three hours to bake a cake by God that cake better be freaking good because I just put three hours into it and I'm going to be disappointed. I'm going to be let down. I'm going to be... If it's not good, there's not a lot of reinforcement there. But if I'm trying to throw a cake together in 20 minutes because I'm rushed out of time and it's not great, you kind of go, "All right, well it's okay. I didn't put a lot of time, I didn't put a lot of effort."

So I think it's a sliding scale in terms of the more you put in, the more you want out or the more you put in, the more you expect that you'll get out. And I think that's a little bit of it for people too. It's that expectation. If I train five days a week, that's automatically going to put me at a championship level or the finalist level. So there's always going to be in whatever aspect, as you guys were saying, whatever sport, whatever level, this kind of direct correlation between what you perceive to be your effort in and what your expectation and want out of it are.

But I think the big point that... I feel like for me the big takeaway is the difference between the wanting and the needing. It gets into the self-worth aspect. It's like, yes, you want it. But even if you spent three hours baking that cake and it didn't turn out, that doesn't make you any less of a person. You had a bad cake or you had a bad performance. And so for me, that was the big takeaway is wanting versus needing, which is easy to say. I think you can listen to it. And we're like, "Yeah, it makes so much sense. What a great interview."

But it's very different when you're in the moment and you have the emotions that come with it, and then you do have the hours and all you can think about is the hours and the sacrifices that you made and you got fourth, you got fifth, or you dropped a or whatever. You didn't get to the level and it doesn't take away from who you are as a character. It's again, yes, you want it, but you don't need it.

So it's like that separation there, that was kind of the big key thing for me. And having been in the sport so incredibly long, I can very much relate to that.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I think I really like that nuance between want and need because if people get nothing else out of this podcast, other than be careful when you're thinking about separating what you want from what you need, I think that even that one point is super powerful because a lot of times we use words like that almost interchangeably, and I do think that the words that we use matter, that how we describe things does have some effect on how we experience them.

So if people get nothing out of this podcast other than to catch themselves when they're thinking about how bad they need that double Q or how bad they need this last clean run at nationals to make it into finals and change it from need to want and what does that mean for you and your life? I think that that's really powerful. And it reminds me a little bit, we've talked before about being nervous versus being excited.

I find that concept to be really powerful that you can just reframe what you're feeling and say, "No, I'm not nervous about this, I'm excited about this." And the feelings are very similar and there's probably a mix of the two, but you choose which one to say that you are. And so this I think is kind of a similar thing. You can choose to say, this is something I want. This is something I want really bad, but it is not something that I need.

Esteban: I think related to that, it's something that Jenn said that really jumped out at me and it was... I think we've all had that moment where you've not gotten something and you've said, "Man," and you think for a moment, all the hours, all the time, all the years or the span of this entire dog's career, this is the one thing that I wanted. And it was all for nothing.

Sarah: Right.

Esteban: Right? It was all for nothing. And in that moment, that's a very emotional response and it's not right. We talk a lot about... I think as competitors in our sport, we talk a lot about the process versus the results. If you're not enjoying the process and you're depending only on the results, that's bad because you're going to have days where those results are not there. And you should never be in a position where you're asking yourself, "Oh, was it all worth it?"

Because the answer is of course, it was all worth it because it wasn't just here for the ribbons or the titles or the praise that people were going to give you, or your world team uniform or whatever. It was about the journey that you undertook with your dog and your friends, and your instructors, and your classmates, and all the shows that you went to and you interacted with other people. Right? There are all these other things, and I think it takes time to figure that out. What do you think?

Jenn: I would 100% agree. Yeah, I'll jump in again. Having been in the sport a very long time, I think for me, the idea of perspective and the whole want versus need is truly something that develops across both your time in the sport and just your life. I remember at 17, right? At 17, I was at my first world championships and my dog knocked a bar. That's all he did. He had a clean run and then he knocked a bar. So at Two World Team events is only fault, was a knock bar, which I look at as being... Now, I look at as being pretty incredible. And I just cried for hours in the locker room, hours because at 17 I didn't have enough life experience to realize. As she said in the interview, the sun will come up tomorrow. Right? At 17, you haven't had the development of relationships like you have.

You haven't had as many losses and deaths, whether it be pets or family members. You just haven't had some of those things that make you put that into perspective. I always say that I'm a very, and I truly believe this, but I'm a very, very different exhibitor now post having a kid than I was pre having a kid.

Sarah: Hundred percent.

Esteban: [inaudible 00:13:33].

Jenn: Having a kid, and also I think as you get older, you tend to lose a lot more family members and grandparents and that kind of thing. It puts a lot more perspective on things. Okay, sure. You want it. How amazing would it be to have a... And I'll use the World championships, have a medal. But I can honestly tell you that that year, was at 2004 was my first year, the year that I cried for hours because I hit a bar. I have no idea who the medalists were that year.

And in the moment I was like, "This is everything to me. If I don't do this..." And it's like I look back on it now and I was, "Wow, that was a really good debut at the World Championships, a clean run and [inaudible 00:14:12]. Not bad." But you develop so much as a character. And I think a lot of times the people that have a lot of perspective on the whole want versus need are people that have had a very, I don't know what word to use, diverse life.

They've experienced a lot, so they have a lot of perspective on things. I think of it a lot with kids. I think the typical high school football movie like this game, this national championship means so much. When you're 56, will the outcome of that game really affect how you got to where you are at 56? It probably didn't. But in the moment, it does. And the more you experience and the more you go through.

And I think that happens even within the sport. So even if you're listening to this and you are 16 years old and you're like, "Well, this old person is telling me I'll gain you all this experience." Even within your sport, where you are at now versus where you were when you started agility and the evolution of things. I remember, and I think a lot of people will relate to this, their debut, their very first one. They get their ribbon. They're taking their photos.

Now, a lot of people don't even pick up their ribbons. I don't even pick up my ribbons. Even within the sport, I've evolved enough to go like, "No, I'd rather have the club have that money and not have to spend the $2 on the ribbon so that I can take it home and put it in a box. If I can help them out and keep entry fees down or whatever."

So it's easy to say. It really is easy to say. I mean, I can tell you that within the last six months, I have come out of the ring and had my moment of anger and said those words like, "Oh, all this training, all this effort. Everything I'm pouring into her. And it's all for nothing. Her career is going to be nothing. She's never going to have it."

But it's a very emotional comment. When I actually sit back and look at it, I'm like, "We are who we are today as a team because of all the training, not the 45 seconds in the ring." The reason I have my relationships with my dogs is not the 45 seconds in the ring. It's all the other stuff that we're doing, the trips, the travel, the hiking, the conditioning, the training sessions, the getting together with your friend and having a really fun couple hours of training and goofing off.

That's what makes me and my dog's relationship, not the 45 seconds in the ring. So there's just an evolution with everything. And I think on that interview, it just was such an enlightening concept for somebody so young. I think that's what hit hard to me, is the Olympian that won that bronze. She wasn't super experienced in old on age. She was very young. So to hear her already have that perspective at that age in the sport, I think will take her a long way.

Esteban: Yeah, I agree with you. Experience is a great teacher. But I guess now I'll share my story and you'll see my story begins. I'm 30 years old, so significantly older than Jenn was at the time, and I did not have that very good perspective. And I think we all know older competitors as well who don't seem to, I guess, make that distinction between wanting and needing or don't quite have that level of self-awareness.

Because my story starts in, I think, 2008, and I want to say this is maybe the first ever AKC Invitational, and we made the trip up to Long Beach, California from Texas. It was like two days driving, Sarah and I. We took this Rottweiler up there. I remember winning round one and then going off course in the next three runs, right? Boom, boom, boom. Of course, of course you're out. I think it was a televised event. I don't remember very much, but I remember that happened.

I remember I had some maybe late front crosses, something about an A-frame and it was over and you're out. I was very disappointed. It was a long drive back to Houston, and I'm sure Sarah remembers the drive better than I do.

Sarah: I didn't remember anything what you were talking about until you said it was a long ride back to Houston. I was like, "Oh yeah." I do remember a very long drive back to Houston where you were very not happy.

Esteban: Yeah, I'm not even sure. I don't even know that I drove up with you. You may have driven the dog up there [inaudible 00:18:35]

Sarah: I think I did,

Esteban: And I had to fly.

Sarah: You had to fly.

Esteban: I was probably in medical school or residency. At that time, I very much had the mindset of, I'm over here trying to be a doctor or learn to be a doctor or study to be a doctor, or if I was a resident, I was probably working like 80 hours a week. And then you get this weekend off and then you try and get up there.

Sarah: Squeeze in this little...

Esteban: To compete, and then you mess it up. And it is really devastating. I think at that time, I needed that. It was beyond when I needed that and when I didn't get. It was really crushing. And then I think you can fast forward to Westminster, which was also a televised event. I think the year we went was... I forget which year already, but we took Gitchi the Golden, and so she was the top seed in the 20-inch class going in. I think if we had run clean, probably we would've won overall champion that year, I think.

A beautiful Australian shepherd, had a great run one instead. And it did not bother me. I mean, it bothered me in the sense like, "Oh, she dropped a bar in the final even she did great." So it gets you a lifelong bar knocker, right? Bars kept her from accomplishing a lot of things. And sure, I think about it and you're like, "Oh, wouldn't it have been nice?" Right? But I did not have the devastation and the mindset that I experienced with the rottweiler at that time all those years before. So this may be a 10-year gap almost between events and there was nothing.

I guess this is where I would tell people who are really struggling with this story. They hear Jenn's story and they're like, "Oh, okay." And they hear my story and they're like, "Oh, okay. But I just can't make myself think that." If you sit down and really think about it, the qualitative, the descriptive difference between your experience, whether you win or lose, 99% of it is the same.

So think about it. We're going to play Marvel movies, superhero movies, the multiverse. It all culminates up to that moment in the final that you're about to run. You've already been there an entire weekend. You've been there three days. You've had a year of training and preparation to get ready for this event. Whether your dog knocks the bar and finishes dead last or goes off course or wins, right? 99% of that year, you did exactly the same thing. You had exactly the same interactions, the same experience, the same validation and discussions with your friends and praise, and looking at your dog thinking, "Oh, you're so awesome. We can do this and blah, blah, blah."

Everything is the same. And then after that moment, there are going to be some very small differences. So instead of being handed a ribbon and people taking your picture and saying, "Hey, you're the champion," they're going to be like, "Oh, hey, too bad about that bar, but your dog was amazing all weekend. Congratulations on making it to the finals. Oh, your dog's so amazing. I love watching them."

They're going to be people who come up, whether you won or lost, and say, "I'm a fan of your dog. Can I get a picture with you and your dog? My kids want to pet your dog." And that's win or lose. Right? So qualitatively, there's no difference in those two experiences or the differences are very, very small. But in that very emotional moment, Jenn talked a lot about the emotion, the emotional response coming off of a "bad run". It feels like everything.

But really, the experience for me, it was as if I had won. And I don't know a better way of putting it other than having that realization that there was no difference between me winning Westminster and not winning Westminster because the journey was in fact a thing and the journey was virtually identical. Think about it. The two journeys are virtually identical. I find this to be a very mind-blowing concept, and I'm not sure that everyone else is. I'm not sure if you and Jenn are looking at me like, "Oh, I don't know what he's talking about." But hopefully for someone out there, that's what really changed my perspective in dog agility specifically. The journey was largely the same.

Jenn: And the only exception that I will add in because I have lived this, is those that teach or use agility as some form of a profession. I do think there is fear of whether or not it's actual reality, I don't know. But fear of the outcome lasting longer than the next five minutes. As you said, I've had just as many people come up to me on a clean run where I won something and say, "Congratulations, great job." As I have had on a near miss where they went, "Oh my gosh, that was such a beautiful run. Sorry about the bar."

So the only thing I think that follows that up, and probably not a large percentage of the listeners, is that there is this feeling that if you don't achieve the results and the good performance, and the good run, that now it does actually become a lasting effect because who wants to come train with a loser? That's how I always feel. "Oh, I keep losing. My dog is not doing very good. Who wants to come train with me? Who wants to come learn from me?"

So there is this feeling of the effect lasting longer when you are trying to do this. If I say for a living, not even necessarily agility, but maybe you have a good breeding program, and so you need the dogs to do well, so people will see your dogs and want your dogs, or you're an instructor, you own a facility or whatever. So I know that is something that I have struggled with tremendously is the aftermath. What is the aftermath of if I win versus if I lose.

If I win, if I have the great run, if I do well that's great for the resume and boosting business. And if I fault, it's not just, "Oh, bummer, it's a bar." It's, "Oh, well, now I'm going to lose clients and nobody wants to be my friend and nobody wants to train with me." I think the reality of that is very, very, very not true. But I know that that's the feeling for a lot of people. Again, and I'm speaking for myself and other professionals who I have spoke to as well, that's where that aftermath follows. But for people who are truly just using agility as a hobby to have a good time, I a hundred percent agree with your analogy, Esteban, of the experience is the same with one tiny, tiny, tiny little caveat, which is the results.

You're still going to have the same training. You're still going to have the same moments leading up to that, the weekend experiences, the dinners with friends, whatever. And then even the amount of feedback after the run a lot of times can be the same whether you do the win or the almost win or whatever.

Sarah: And I think the one other thing that I wanted to point out here that I thought was really powerful about this is she's really distinguishing between wanting and needing. Nowhere in there is there like stop caring because I think sometimes we go all the way to the other side and sometimes... I mean, I think a lot of times it is...

Esteban: Protective.

Sarah: Protective, right? Or it is well-meaning people. Right? So not to super call it out, but a lot of times you'll hear the phrase, "It's just dogs jumping over PVC." And it's kind of like this way of minimizing the whole thing. None of this matters and... None of this matters. Don't get upset because none of it matters at the end. Right?

Esteban: Right.

Sarah: And that's the other thing that I really like about this is that when you listen to her, she's really talking about just that subtle distinction between wanting and needing, but not saying that none of this matters at all. And so I think that that's another really powerful concept because I think that as well-meaning as that is, I don't think it's true. And I think that it takes away a little bit of... You have to have some desire and some motivation to be in the sport and to want to do your best. So we can't bring it all the way back to this total unemotional baseline. That's also not, I mean, to some extent, not enjoyable. Right?

Esteban: Right.

Sarah: Part of sport is excitement, and risk, and desire.

Esteban: You're talking about the well-meaning competitor, right?

Sarah: Right.

Esteban: So the person that comes up and says, "Hey, well, I just finished my chemo and I beat cancer or so-and-so my spouse of however many years died. So this is just agility. Why don't you calm down about it?" And so I think that comes from a very good place. You're trying to help this person who's clearly struggling with their bad run or bad weekend or issues that they're having with their dog, and you're trying to give them some perspective. In fact, you're trying to give them your perspective. Right?

Sarah: Right.

Esteban: I think that's a little bit where you go wrong. And so I think that's very well said that it's okay to want something.

Sarah: Right.

Esteban: Right? Because I think there's a little bit of judgment in there when you're... And I certainly understand the feeling, I have thought the same thing too. There was a long period of time where when I was a doctor, I did agility and agility was very much a way for me to work through the stress of my work, my job, and the suffering and the death and dying that you see every day. And I would sometimes think that to myself, but you can't put that on someone else.

So I think the intentions, the good intentions are there, but it's not how human psychology works, and it's not actually helpful to that person when you say those things. So I think acknowledging that people want these things and then maybe if you're in a position to do so, you're an instructor, you're a close friend of the competitor, helping them explore that area between wanting and needing, that's something that people need to figure out for themselves.

So I think we pretty much covered everything, but I did want to get back to this one thing that Jennifer was saying about people who teach agility. I feel that we've opened that box.

Jenn: So I was going to say-

Esteban: You've got to help these people out.

Sarah: Yeah, sorry about that.

Esteban: All of us here teach.

Sarah: Yeah, I almost said something and then I thought maybe we'll have another podcast. What do you think? Do you want to do it now?

Esteban: Yeah, because I think it's fairly quick because the answer I feel like is basically the same, right? Jennifer is already given you the answers that you need, right? Number one, that it's a very emotional response and not actually based in factual reality. How many people have gone out there really stunk it up or not done well for years, and suddenly their business just collapsed and died and they're out of agility and they're not doing it anymore. I can't name a single one.

In fact, I can name a lot of people who don't compete at a very high level anymore, but who have a lot of success helping other people reach their goals.

Jenn: And that's where the logical part always comes in. In the moment you feel like you need this run, you need to look "look good" in order for people to aspire to want to train with you or be like you. But the reality of it is there is not, and I'm very adamant on this, this is maybe where you go into another podcast. There's not necessarily a correlation between one's ability to teach something and one's ability to do something.

I think that's huge. And I think on the biggest stage that we have here in the US, are you telling me Andy Reid can get out there and play football? Because I am confident that he cannot. And he is Super Bowl champion coach and many times and one of the best teams out there. And so that's what I try to think about. It's like my performance on this run with my dog does not impact my ability to coach and teach and educate others.

I am the only child of two parents who were teachers, and my dad taught welding, and he is always like, "Oh, I can teach welding way better than I can weld myself." He goes, "If I'm going to need a job done, I'm going to go to my students." He's like, "I'm not going to do it myself." He's like, "I can teach them, but I can't do it as well." And so logically I get that there is not. But I will tell you that that is one of the things that I have had to seek help on for me personally is not feeling like a failed performance is going to affect my career and then affect my income. And I can't pay my mortgage.

Sarah: Catastrophizing.

Jenn: Exactly. That's one of the big struggles that I have is correlating the resume and the results to not my self-worth in terms of who I am, but how the outcome of these things will affect my livelihood. In reality, they're not tied. But again, I'm in a very emotional competitor and anybody who's been around me in the five minutes after my run knows that. That's why I always say there's the five-minute rule. Don't approach somebody within five minutes of a bad run. Minute six, you can go up and talk to them.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. You and Esteban are a lot alike that way. That's why I work so well with Jenn, because as soon as I met her, I already knew how to deal with her.

Jenn: Exactly.

Sarah: But yeah, the other perspective that I was going to give, I think you're exactly right that it's like the teaching versus coaching. Or sorry, being a good teacher versus being a good competitor. But even aside from that, I think the other point is I think you have to give people maybe a little bit more credit to see past a dropped bar or an off course or even a super bad run. And to really kind of look at more like the body of work. I don't think people. I think haters will latch onto one bad run, but I think haters are not going to be your students anyway. And I think that the vast majority of people can look past that, can see all of the brilliance even in an [inaudible 00:32:54] run.

And I think even more than that, I think that being a human is an important aspect of being an instructor. And I think that sometimes people are surprised at how when they're a little bit more vulnerable, when they let people see a bad run, that you actually get more support, not less from the community and from students that people... It's almost like they trust you more because you know what? Nobody's perfect. And so if you have this perfect facade, there could be sometimes this element of what's happening behind the scenes.

And when you see these occasional mistakes, it's like there's almost like trust built with students. And I know that we have for a long time at Bad Dog Agility, we have shown our mistakes as often as our successes. We've been very open with it. The whole idea of the before and after course that we do where we analyze the run, good, or bad, at the time, that was unheard of. Nobody took a bad run and then analyze why it was bad. And people love those courses. They love getting that look behind the scenes.

Esteban: That really could be a whole nother podcast. I'll just give credit where it's due, where I first saw that, and that was Sylvia Turkman. She just put stuff up on social media like bars down this and that. And she was the first big handler that I saw doing that. And I thought, "This is pretty amazing." And to see what's going on and talking about her mistakes and things like that. And at that time everyone would only put up perfect stuff. And if you were making whatever videos, DVDs or exercises, you would run your dog over and over again until they got it perfect. And that could be releasable. And then after Sylvia did that kind of stuff, I was like, "No, there's a lot of value and seeing these errors and working through these mistakes," and that's what people wanted and started to benefit from. But that's a whole nother thing. But that's a really good point.

Sarah: I just want to point out, you said DVDs.

Esteban: How dare you?

Sarah: Anyway. All right. Well, I mean, honestly, I have absolutely loved this conversation. I think that there is something in here for pretty much every competitor out there to just tweak the way you're looking at yourself and your results and how you're approaching trials. And I hope that it will help everybody have a better overall experience. And that's it for this week's podcast. We'd like to thank our sponsors, Saint Rocco's Treats and hititboard.com. Check out the Teeter Teach It only at hititboard.com. The Teeter Teach It is an easy to use tool that controls the amount of tip on your teeter, so you can introduce motion to your dog in a gradual way.

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